The testimony of George S. De Mohrenschildt was taken at 10 a.m. on April 22, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue N.E., Washington, D.C., by Mr. Albert E. Jenner, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission. Dr. Alfred Goldberg, historian, was present.
Mr. JENNER. Will you rise and be sworn? Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth in the deposition you are about to give?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I do.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Reporter, this is Mr. George De Mohrenschildt. Mr. De Mohrenschildt, you and Mrs. De Mohrenschildt have received letters from Mr. Rankin, the general counsel of the Commission, have you not?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. We received one.
Mr. JENNER. One joint letter?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. One joint letter.
Mr. JENNER. With which was enclosed copies of the Senate Joint Resolution 137, which was the legislation authorizing the creation of the Commission to investigate the assassination of President John Fitzgerald Kennedy; the Executive Order No. 11130, President Lyndon Johnson--which brought the Commission actually into existence and appointed the Commissioners and fixed their powers and duties and obligations. And, also, a copy of the rules and regulations adopted by the Commission for the taking of testimony before the Commission, and by deposition.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Are you a representative of the Commission?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. A lawyer for the Commission?
Mr. JENNER. I will state it in a moment.
I am Albert E. Jenner, Jr., member of the legal staff of the Commission, and have prepared to make inquiry of you with respect to the subject matter with which the Commission is charged.
In general, as you have noted from the documents enclosed with Mr. Rankin's letter, the Commission is charged with the investigation and the assembling of facts respecting the assassination of President John F. Kennedy on the 22d of November 1963, the events that followed that assassination, and all matters before and after that are deemed by the Commission relevant to its obligations.
In pursuing these lines of inquiry, which we have been doing now for some months, we have examined before the Commission and by way of deposition various people who, by pure happenstance in the course of their lives, came into contact either with Lee Harvey Oswald or Marina Oswald, or others who had some relation with them. And in the course of our investigation, we have learned that you and Mrs. De Mohrenschildt befriended the Oswalds at one time, and had some other contact with them.
As you realize, there are rumors and speculations of various people who do not know what the facts are--some of them know bits of the facts--which require us in many instances to inquire into matters that are largely personal. We are not doing so merely because we are curious.
I will confine myself to matters that we believe to be relevant. It may not always be apparent to you, because we know a great deal more, of course, than any one witness would know.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. You know, this affair actually is hurting me quite a lot, particularly right now in Haiti, because President Duvalier--I have a contract with the Government.
Mr. JENNER. Yes; I want to inquire on that.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. They got wind I am called by the Warren committee. Nobody knows how it happened. And now he associates me, being very scared of assassination, with a staff of international assassins, and I am about to be expelled from the country. My contract may be broken.
So I discussed that with our Ambassador there, Mr. Timmons, and he said, of course, it sounds ridiculous, but he will try to do his best.
Supposedly, President Duvalier received a letter from Washington. Now, this is unofficial---one of the ministers informed me of that--in which this letter states that I was a very close friend of Oswald's, that I am a Polish Communist and a member of an international band.
Mr. JENNER. I would say that you are misinformed on that.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, he did receive some kind of a letter.
Mr. JENNER. But nothing that would contain any such statements.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, I don't know from whom. Some kind of a letter he received from someone.
Mr. JENNER. It may have been a crank letter.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. What is that?
Mr. JENNER. It may have been a crank letter, but nothing official.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I am sure it is nothing official. I am sure it could not have been anything official.
I hope Mr. Timmons will investigate it. Because, naturally, the Minister of Finance of Haiti tells me that it is an official letter and seems to indicate that it comes from the FBI. But I just doubt it, personally. Probably a crank letter. I do not have an extraordinary admiration for the FBI. But, frankly, I don't think they would do anything like that, you know.
Mr. JENNER. They don't go around making official-
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. So I hope that this unpleasantness will be somehow repaired by Mr. Timmons. And I think that just a communication from him to the foreign office there might help. I am not persona non grata at the Embassy. He doesn't have to swear I am this or that, or that I am a good friend of his. But just that I am not persona non grata would be sufficient, I think. Because this job I have there in Haiti is a result of many years of work, preparation, and it is important for me. It involves a considerable amount of money, $285,000, and further development, mining and oil development, which goes with it--and preparation of this job started already in 1947, when I first came to Haiti, and went several times subsequently and worked there. It is a long-term approach that I have started, because I like the country, and I think it has excellent oil possibilities, and I finally got that contract about in March last year.
So if the committee could do something in that respect--I am going also to see a gentleman in the State Department who Mr. Timmons suggested me to see and explain the situation to him. It would be very unpleasant, just to be kicked out of the country because of the rumors.
Mr. JENNER. Well, we certainly don't want that to happen. All right.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Please think about what can be done in this respect, because it is really very important to me.
Mr. JENNER. Now---
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. And excuse me. I am also employing American geologists there, and I am responsible for them and their families. I have several Haitian engineers and geologists working there. So it is not a fly-by-night project, you see.
Mr. JENNER. Well, I don't regard it as such, and I know something about it. I think probably it would be well if we start from the beginning. You were born in 1911?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Some of the reports say April 17th and some say April 4th, or something of that nature. It is probably a difference in the calendar.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. That is it exactly. It is a difference in calendar.
Mr. JENNER. It is April 17, 1911, by what calendar?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. By our calendar here.
Mr. JENNER. And what date by----
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. April 4th.
Mr. JENNER. And by what calendar is that?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. By the Gregorian Calendar.
Mr. JENNER. In any event, you are now 53 years old?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Where were you born?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. A town called Mozyr.
Mr. JENNER. What country?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Russia; Czarist Russia.
Mr. JENNER. Czarist, did you say?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Now, some of the reports indicate that this was Poland rather than Russia. Would you explain this?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, I don't remember the town, because I never lived there to my memory. But it is not too far from the Polish border.
Mr. JENNER. Now, your father was Sergis Alexander Von Mohrenschildt, is that correct? And your mother was Alexandra Zopalsky?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. What nationality was your mother?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. My mother was Russian, of Polish and Hungarian descent.
Mr. JENNER. And the nationality of your father?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. He was also of Russian, Swedish, German descent.
Mr. JENNER. Would you tell me a little bit about your father? And may I say this. There appear in the reports that he was--or maybe your grandfather, was Swedish, or someone in your line was Swedish, and received some commission or grant from the Queen of Sweden at one time, or maybe your family.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Tell us about that, will you?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, the family is of Swedish origin. The name is spelled M-o-h-r-e-n-s-k-u-l-d.
Mr. JENNER. Yes; I saw last night in looking over these materials the spelling S-k-o-l-d-t, is that correct?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right, it is spelled this way. That is a Swedish way of spelling. And the letter "o" with two dots over it is a typical Swedish letter which cannot be translated or written down in any language. So in probably moving to Russia, or to the Baltic States, you see, which was an intermediary area between Russia and Sweden, they probably changed it to S-c-h-i- l-d-t. And it can also be written in Russian, at the same time.
Mr. JENNER. Now, what did your father do? What was he?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. He was a landowner. He was a director of the Nobel interests for a while. He was a marshal of nobility of the Minsk Province.
Mr. JENNER. He was what?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Marshal of nobility. He was elected representative of the landowners to the Government.
Mr. JENNER. Of what country?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Of Czarist Russia. He was born in Russia, and spent all his life in Russia, spoke German at home sometimes, sometimes Russian. That was a mixed-up family, of which there were so many in Russia.
Mr. JENNER. You, yourself, have the command of at least four, maybe five languages. May I see if I can recall them. English?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; if you consider it a command.
Mr. JENNER. Yes; I do. German?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. German, not too well.
Mr. JENNER. Spanish?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Spanish.
Mr. JENNER. French?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Russian?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Russian; yes.
Mr. JENNER. And I suppose a smattering of a number of other languages.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. You have traveled widely?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Especially in Europe?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Now you can add Creole to it.
Mr. JENNER. From your experience in Haiti?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. And Yugoslav.
Mr. JENNER. Yes; you spent almost a year in Yugoslavia.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did you pick up any Danish when you were there, or do they speak French there?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. They speak German and French.
Mr. JENNER. Your father is deceased?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. What do you know about his death?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. My father was----
Mr. JENNER. I think it might be well, Mr. De Mohrenschildt--I am trying to make this informal. I want you to relax.
May I say, because of the considerations about which you are concerned, I will tend to inquire into these things.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I am very glad that you do, because you know what I mean--it is probably being in a controversial business like I am, international business----
Mr. JENNER. Also, I gather that you are a pretty lively character.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Maybe so. I hope so. All sorts of speculation have arisen from time to time. And I don't mind, frankly, because when you don't have anything to hide, you see, you are not afraid of anything. I am very outspoken.
Mr. JENNER. I understand that you. are, from witnesses I have interviewed, and from these mountains of reports.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I can imagine. By the way, those reports--again, you see this inquiry is probably going to hurt my business. I hope they are conducted somehow delicately.
Mr. JENNER. Now, I was asking you to tell me about your father.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Up to the time of his death, from what you understand to be the circumstances of death.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; well, my father, then, therefore, was an important official of the Czarist government. But he was a liberal--he had very liberal ideas. He, for instance, was---
Mr. JENNER. Now, liberal, to me, over in that country would mean nothing. You tell us what you mean by that.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Liberal means disliked anti-Semitism, the persecution of Jews.
Mr. JENNER. He was opposed to that?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Opposed to that. Disliked the oppression, some elements of oppression of the Czarist government.
Mr. JENNER. He was opposed to that?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Opposed to that. And preached constitutional government. During the war he was a member--being an official--member of the group which mobilized the Army, and all that.
Mr. JENNER. He mobilized the Czarist army?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. You are talking now about World War I?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. World War I. It is such a long time ago.
Mr. JENNER. I have to get these things on record, so that somebody who is reading this, Mr. De Mohrenschildt, a hundred years from now--I should tell you that your testimony will be reproduced in full just as you give it, with all my questions put to you just as I put them. And it will be printed as part of the report.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I can imagine what a volume it will be for the future Ph. D.'s to study. This is vague in my memory. I am saying what I vaguely remember, because, at that time, I was 5 years old. But I vaguely remember those days, the objections of my father against the Czarist government to a degree, although he was an official. He was an independent character, too. Finally he resigned his marshal of nobility position, and became a director of Nobel interests, of which his older brother was a president or chairman of the board--I don't know, I don't remember any more, in Baku, Russia. So we spent a little time there in the oil fields. And then, of course, the revolution came.
Mr. JENNER. And that came when?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Beg pardon?
Mr. JENNER. When?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. 1918, I guess. Then the revolution came. We were returned to Minsk.
Mr. JENNER. In 1918 where were you?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. In 1918 probably in St. Petersburg, or Moscow, one or the other--in both towns at some times. Because the headquarters of that Nobel enterprises were in Petersburg or Moscow. But I am not so sure about that. Anyway, we lived there for awhile.
Mr. JENNER. You do have a personal recollection of having lived in St. Petersburg and Moscow?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, very vague. I never expected you to ask me such questions. I really have to delve into my memory. It is not very difficult, because, you know, I like to write things. So I did write a story of my childhood, and it is called "Child of the Revolution," a memory of the child of the revolution. It was poorly written. I showed it to one of the editors, Scribners, I remember, and they wanted me to change it, and I abandoned the whole thing. Well, so I do have a little bit more recollection than I am supposed to have just by living so many years, because I did write it down.
Mr. JENNER. Yes. You wrote it when you came over to this country.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And you refreshed your recollection at that time?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. Discussions with your brother, I suppose?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. Now, you have mentioned Minsk.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. That was the province where my father was governor-not governor, but marshal of nobility of.
Mr. JENNER. What province is that?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Province of Minsk. Surprisingly, that is where Lee Oswald lived. This is one of the reasons I was curious about his experiences, because I remember it very well. I remember that town very well.
Mr. JENNER. What age were you when you left Minsk?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. So from Leningrad, during the occupation by the Germans of Minsk, you see, we escaped from the Communists in Leningrad, and moved to Minsk back again, because it was German occupied.
Mr. JENNER. This was in World War I?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, in World War I. That was in 1918 or 1919. I don't remember exactly what year it was. That area was still occupied by the Germans. Anyway, there was famine in Moscow, or Leningrad, I don't remember which one--there was famine there. So we escaped.
Mr. JENNER. Did your whole family escape to Minsk?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't remember what my brother was doing at the time. I think--I think just my father, mother, and myself. I think my brother was in the Naval Academy at the time.
Mr. JENNER. I want to ask you about your brother in due course. He is about 12 years older than you?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes--11.
Mr. JENNER. A man of some scholarly attainment, by the way.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. He certainly is. He loves books.
Mr. JENNER. Now----
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Anyway, we escaped from the famine, frankly, more than communism, and moved back to Minsk--whether we had a house, or I don't remember, but we had some possessions there. And we arrived there. And from then on we stayed there, although the Communists eventually occupied Minsk. Then my father was put in jail. I will make it short.
Mr. JENNER. Please that is all right. I don't mind the shortness. But I want times. About when was your father put in jail?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. The first time in 1920, I think.
Mr. JENNER. And you were still with your family then?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. At this time you were 9 years old.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Your mother was still alive?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Your father was seized?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. By whom?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. By the Communists, by the Communist regime.
Mr. JENNER. Why was he seized?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. For being outspoken, I guess. I remember--the first time I don't remember, frankly. But the second time I remember very well, because this is very interesting. He was seized the first time. Then the Polish Army arrived--the Poles and the Russians were fighting at the time. And at the last moment the Communists released my father, because of the intervention of some friend, you see. And we always had some friends whom we had protected once upon a time, who always came and helped him at the right moment with the Communists, because many Jewish people he had helped became Communists, or halfway Communists. They helped him. And that is how eventually we were able to escape from Soviet Russia.
The first time he was released, the Poles arrived, we were in Poland again, that was a temporary occupation. And then the Poles retreated and the Russians arrived again. And here was the question to decide whether we should go with the Poles or stay in Russia. And my father decided to stay in Russia because being a liberal he had an impression that they have changed.
Mr. JENNER. That the Russians had changed?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; he heard from somebody that they have become liberal. He stayed in Minsk, and because he stayed he got some kind of an appointment in the Soviet Government. I don't remember which one it was. I guess in the Department of Agriculture, because he was interested in division of big estates. That was his idea--what was going on in Russia was opposed by the huge estates. We had one, also, but not as big. So he was always in favor of the division of the big estates, breaking them up into smaller farms. And he had this appointment, adviser to the Minister of Agriculture I don't remember what it was exactly. And we lived more or less happily for a certain number of months-- although there was a famine there.
Mr. JENNER. Now, you are still in Minsk?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Still in Minsk; yes--in probably 1920. And then one day they arrested him again. And here is what happened. I will show you what kind of a person he was. At the time they were installing museums in churches. And my father objected to that.
Mr. JENNER. Your father was a religious man, was he?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. No; he was not religious. But he objected by principle to that. He was not very religious at all. But he objected to the intervention into other people's faith. We never had too much religion in the family. And he was put in jail. And started criticizing the Soviet Government. And, finally--I remember this more distinctly--because he was finally sentenced to life exile to Siberia. And that I will never forget about my father--an interesting thing.
Mr. JENNER. He was banished to Siberia by the Russians?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. These are the Bolsheviks who had conducted the revolution. This was a revolutionary period?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. This is 1921 by now.
Mr. JENNER. You are now 10 years old?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I remained on the street making my own living somehow. My mother runs around the country trying to save my father. He is in jail for the second time, and finally he gets sentenced to life imprisonment in a town called Vieliki Ustug in Siberia. This is as far as I remember the name of it.
And why was he sentenced for that--because at the hearing, whatever they called the court, they asked him, "What kind of government do you suggest for Soviet Russia?" And he said, fool as he was, "Constitutional monarchy," and that was it. That was his sentence just because of that. Because, actually, they didn't have anything against him. My father was a liberal and never hurt anybody. He became very sick in jail. And these friends--the friends whom he had helped previously----
Mr. JENNER. You mean true friends?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. In this particular case I don't remember their names. They were a couple of Jewish doctors who advised my father to eat as little as possible, any way to appear very sick, and finally--they themselves were his doctors. They finally made the position with the Soviet Government that he was going to die, he was not going to survive the trip to Siberia, because he was going to be sent directly to Siberia, with the family, with all of us. And that he should be released to stay home, and just appear once--a couple of times a week to show he is there, until his health condition improved, and he was able to be sent to Siberia.
And they did. that, surprisingly, and they released him. And that is where he made his preparations for escape. And the same people helped him to get some transportation, a hay wagon, and we crossed the border, in a very long and tedious way. But we crossed the border of Poland.
Mr. JENNER. You crossed the border into Poland, and he settled where?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. In a town called Wilno.
Mr. JENNER. That was yourself, your mother, and your father?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. My father. But my mother almost immediately died from typhoid fever which she contracted during this escape. We all had this typhoid fever.
Mr. JENNER. But she succumbed to it?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. And this was what year?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. 1922.
Mr. JENNER. You are now 11 years old.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. At this point I might ask you--the name was Von Mohrenschildt at this particular time?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Your name is now De Mohrenschildt.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. I think your brother still uses the Von, does he not?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Would you explain that?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes--because I am more or less of a French orientation. And when I became an American citizen, I did not like the prefix "Von" which is German to the average person. And so we used "De" which is equally used in Sweden or in the Baltic States, interchangeably. And my uncle, who was here in the States for quite some time, and died here----
Mr. JENNER. I was going to ask you about him. You might as well give his full name.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Ferdinand De Mohrenschildt.
Mr. JENNER. I will digress for a moment. Ferdinand De Mohrenschildt was some officer, or had a connection with the Russian Embassy here in Washington?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Tell us about that, please.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, he was First Secretary of the Czarist Embassy, the last Czarist Embassy here in Washington. He married McAdoo's daughter.
Mr. JENNER. William Gibbs McAdoo's daughter. She is now Mrs. Post. Is she still alive?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; she is still alive.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall her first name?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Nona.
Mr. JENNER. Your uncle is deceased?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. He is deceased; yes.
Mr. JENNER. They were eventually divorced, were they not?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, sir; no--he died. They were never divorced. She was divorced many times--remarried and divorced many times. But he died--I guess in 1925 or 1924.
Mr. JENNER. Sometimes people refer to you as Baron De Mohrenschildt.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Would you explain that?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't refer to myself as that, you know. But supposedly the family has the right to it, because we are members of the Baltic nobility.
Mr. JENNER. Through what source?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Through the Swedish source, from the time of Queen Christina. But my father never used the title, because of his perhaps liberal tendencies. Neither did Ferdinand, I think.
Mr. JENNER. And as near as I can tell, your brother never has?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. My brother--I don't think so; no.
Mr. JENNER. At least I don't find it in any of the papers.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. You are an interesting person, Mr. De Mohrenschildt, to many people. They have gathered ideas about you, and many of them in the past at least have felt that you might have been, or that you perhaps were--had a title of some kind. I just wanted to explain that of record.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Now, we have you in Wilno, Poland. You are 11 years old.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I have some papers which say that we are barons, in my files. But, frankly, I don't--I think it is sort of ridiculous to use the title. My ex-wife loved the idea.
Mr. JENNER. Which one?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. The very last one, Sharples.
Mr. JENNER. Am I correct that there were two children, yourself and your brother Dimitri?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. And no others--just two children?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. Now, you stayed in Wilno, Poland, how long?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Stayed in Wilno until I graduated from gymnasium, which is the equivalent of high school. A little bit more than a high school. That must have been 1929. Not constantly over there, but that is where our home was.
Mr. JENNER. What did your father do in Wilno?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. In Wilno he fought for the--tried to regain back our estate. It happened to be we had an estate, a piece of land.
Mr. JENNER. In Russia?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. In Russia--which became Poland--in Czarist Russia, but which became Poland. Right on the border. It became through the partition of Czarist Russia, it became part of Poland. And this estate was in Poliesie. That is a wooded area of Poland, right on the border.
Well, the estate was seized by the peasants and divided among themselves by themselves. It was not large, but it was--well, maybe 5,000 acres; 5,000 or 6,000 acres.
Mr. JENNER. I would say that is fairly large.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. My father was able to regain it. He did not take it back from the peasants, but he regained ownership and was able to sell the forests from it, and eventually sold it back again to the peasants piece by piece. So we were not completely penniless refugees.
Mr. JENNER. Did your mother have an interest in that estate?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, it was mother's and father's estate, probably jointly.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Now, you completed your classical intermediate education, as you call the gymnasium, in 1929.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. So you are now 18 years of age?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Your mother is deceased. Did you live with your father during this period?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Now---
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Very close relationship I had with my father.
Mr. JENNER. Now, did you then leave Poland?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. No. Then I tried to---I did not like the country very much, Poland. We became Polish citizens, but I didn't particularly feel at home there. I learned the language. But it didn't feel like home. And I decided to go to study in Belgium, and asked for permission to go to Belgium, and the Polish Government refused me the permission because I was close to the military age. So I volunteered for the Polish Army.
Mr. JENNER. Now, I would like to go into that. Go right ahead.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I volunteered for the Polish Army and chose the cavalry and was sent to the military academy in Grudziondz. Well, it was a famous military academy in Poland where the Polish nobility displayed their ability to ride horseback. And I was able to get to it because I volunteered--I was 18 years old. I graduated from there.
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. May I ask you this: Would it have been possible for any young man your age at that time, let's say, if I may use a reference, peasant, which you were not, to have volunteered for the same position or division in the Polish Army?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. There were some exceptions. Most of the people there were members of the aristocracy, Polish aristocracy, and German aristocracy, who happened to have estates in Poland. But we had some exceptions. But they did not survive later on. They were eliminated, not because of the snobbishness, but it was a pretty tough training, and you needed money to be in that school. You had to have a uniform, you have to have your own horse.
Mr. JENNER. Now, where did you get the funds to finance it?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, my father had this estate, sales of land from that estate, and he also was--now, this I forgot to mention about my father. He started originally as a professor in the gymnasium, then became a government official with the Czarist government. So he was always--always liked to teach.
Mr. JENNER. You are taking us back to Russia for a moment?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Back to Russia for a moment; yes. So now his profession as a government official was no good--neither his experience as a director of Nobel Enterprises was not much good. So he became a professor and a director of the gymnasium, the Russian gymnasium.
Mr. JENNER. That is the high school?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. High school, in Wilno. You know--where the immigrants send their children. And he was director of it for a number of years. I don't remember what exact years. I guess until 1929 or 1930. I didn't go to the same school, by the way. I went to a different school.
Mr. JENNER. You mean you went to a school different from the one in which he was teaching?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; in order not to be under my father's---not supervision, but also that school did not give the rights in Poland, by the way-- did not have the rights in Poland to go to a university in Poland or to serve a short military term, because it was a refugee school, conducted in the Russian language. So I went to a Polish school, had to learn the Polish language, and finally graduated.
Mr. JENNER. Did I mention Polish as one of the languages of which you have a command?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. And, therefore, it was very important, because the military service for the people graduating from nonaccepted schools was 4 years, or something like that, and for the ones who graduated from the official school it was, I think, a year and a half.
Mr. JENNER. Now, how long were you in the military academy?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. A year and a half.
Mr. JENNER. And this would take us, then, to the middle of 1931.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. 1931; yes.
Mr. JENNER. And you had reached what, if any, rank in the military service?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I reached candidate officer--sergeant candidate officer, an intermediate rank between an officer and noncommissioned officer. The highest you can get after you get from the military academy.
Mr. JENNER. Just before as in this country you are about to be commissioned a second lieutenant?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. Except that you are not completely a soldier--you are not a noncommissioned officer, you are not a commissioned officer. You are about to be commissioned a lieutenant.
Mr. JENNER. I see. All right. Now, you didn't pursue that?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. No, no. It was just a reserve. You see, it gives you a reserve rank which you can pursue by going back to maneuvers, and pursue that.
Mr. JENNER. Now, there are some indications that you did return.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Now, tell me what you did in that connection?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, I went to school, then to Belgium--I was free now to go to school to Belgium. And I went to Institut Superieur de Commerce a Anvers.
Mr. JENNER. The translation of that is the institute of higher commercial studies, Antwerp, Belgium. When attending the institution of higher commercial studies in Antwerp, you returned to Poland, did you, from time to time?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. In connection with your summer maneuvers?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And what was the requirement in that connection?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Just to come there when they called you, and go with the Army--summer maneuvers, summer exercises. I think I did that twice. I don't recall.
Mr. JENNER. And this was still in the cavalry?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Still in the cavalry.
Mr. JENNER. Were you ultimately commissioned?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. No; always stayed a sergeant.
Mr. JENNER. You entered the institute of----
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. By the way, which was a commission--that is very hard to explain to you. It is like midshipman in the Navy. That is what it is. And since I did not pursue the military career. I remained a candidate officer.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I was not disqualified for any reason. On the contrary, I was the best actually, if I may say so.
Mr. JENNER. Let me pass for a moment in this connection so we can get it on the record here your brother, Dimitri, 11 years older than you, he also devoted his time to the service, but to the Navy.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Now, that was the Russian Czarist Navy, was it not?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. And tell us about that, please.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, he joined the naval academy when I think he was 11 or 12 years old. That is what they have out there. They start very young. Do you want a little bit of the background of my brother?
Mr. JENNER. Yes, sir; go right ahead.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. He is really a ferocious anti-Communist, so you would be very happy to hear about that. He was in the Russian Imperial Navy, became a midshipman.
Mr. JENNER. Give me some dates.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, he was a midshipman in 1918, in Sebastopol, which is the headquarters there.
Mr. JENNER. Now, he was born March 29, 1902, in St. Petersburg, Russia.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. I thought he was born in 1900.
Mr. JENNER. Well, his records at the passport office give his birth as March 29, 1902, and he gives his birth in his biographical material at Dartmouth and Yale.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, anyway, he was a young edition of a midshipman. He was a midshipman in 1918, which is like graduation from Annapolis here.
Mr. JENNER. And did he actually serve in the Czarist Navy?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. All the time you are in that school you are in the navy, all the time even when you are 12 years old, you are a member of the navy. It is not like here.
Mr. JENNER. Did he participate in World War I, in the late 1918 period of fighting.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall where?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't recall where. He joined anti-Communist groups, was finally caught by the Communists, and sentenced to death in a town called Smolensk.
Here we were coming back to our--we were already in Minsk at the time, that was not too far. My brother was in Smolensk in jail, in a Communist jail. My father also in jail. And I was the only one at liberty. And my mother was running around trying to help both of them.
My brother was sentenced to be shot. He was put to the wall and they told him, "You will be shot when they say three, and they would say one, two--he was supposed to disclose the names of his accomplices.
Now, I do not recall; Yes, yes. The Polish Government exchanged him against a Communist. They made an exchange. They had some Communist prisoners, and my brother was with a group of Poles who were prisoners of the Communists, and the Poles exchanged him against some of my father's old friends.
And I remember who it is. It was a Catholic bishop in Poland.
Mr. JENNER. What was his name?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Lozinski. He was a bishop who was in jail with my brother, also, and they wanted him, he helped my brother to get out.
Mr. JENNER. Did your brother join you in Wilno, Poland?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. He immediately--it looks vague. I think he joined us for a little while, or he maybe went ahead of us and came to the United States.
Mr. JENNER. My information is that he emigrated to the United States on the 20th of August 1920.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. A little bit ahead of us.
Mr. JENNER. Does that square with your recollection?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. You see, there was an intermediate year. The Poles had occupied part of Russia. I think we saw him just before he departed for the United States. The Poles offered him to join the Navy in Poland, and he decided to go to the United States.
Mr. JENNER. All right. I had digressed a moment because it was appropriate to have your brother come in at the point we reached. But we have you now in Belgium, attending the university.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Had your brother had a higher education while he was still in Russia? That is, had he gone beyond the gymnasium stage?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. No. My brother was a midshipman in the Navy. He had only the naval academy education, and even shortened--short naval academy education. I don't know what you would compare it to. Certainly better than high school here.
Mr. JENNER. Junior college?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Junior college; yes.
Mr. JENNER. Now, you continued your studies, did you, in Belgium?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And did you receive a degree from the institute of higher commercial studies in Antwerp?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. I received what you called--master's degree, probably equivalent, because they don't have bachelor's degree there. You get immediately a master's degree--a license--in finance and in maritime transportation--another year of maritime transportation.
Mr. JENNER. And you attended this institute for 4 years, did you not?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. For 5 years.
Mr. JENNER. Well, you received----
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; all the degrees you can get there.
Mr. JENNER. This is one of the oldest commercial institutions of higher learning in Europe?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Something like the Harvard Business School?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; founded by Napoleon.
Mr. JENNER. And you received a----
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. It is a mixture of some engineering and commercial--not exactly like Harvard School of Business Administration. It lets you carry on industrial and business activities, with a specialization in maritime transportation.
Mr. JENNER. There is some indication that your degree is one of master of arts in commercial, financial, and counsular sciences.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Now, you continued on--after you received that master's degree, you continued on for another year, did you not?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. No; you entered----
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I entered the University of Liege.
Mr. JENNER. And how long did you study there?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Two years.
Mr. JENNER. And you ultimately received a degree, did you not?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. What was that degree?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Doctor of science in international commerce.
Mr. JENNER. Did you write a doctorate thesis?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. On what subject was it?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. It was the subject of the economic influence of the United States on Latin America.
Mr. JENNER. Had you already acquired, through that, an interest in Latin America?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, yes.
Mr. JENNER. And you have pursued that in subsequent years, have you not?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; a very useful dissertation it was.
Mr. JENNER. Now, we have you--let's see, this is about 5 years--you are about----
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. 1938.
Mr. JENNER. We are up in 1938.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Now,----
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. In the meantime, my brother came to visit me from the United States. We had not seen each other since 1920. He was studying--he was pursuing his career, and eventually got married.
Mr. JENNER. To Miss McAdoo?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. No; that is my uncle. My brother married a lady by the name of Betty Cartright Hooker.
Mr. JENNER. That is right. And you were in partnership at one time with Edward Hooker, were you not?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. I will get to that in a moment. She is still living, is she not?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. She still is living; yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Is she in this country or in Paris or Italy?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. She is in New York now. I have her address some place. She lives between New York and Paris.
Mr. JENNER. Did you engage in some kind of a business in Europe during this period?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. While you were attending the university?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. How did you manage that while you--inasmuch as you were pursuing your studies at two universities?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, I had an interest in a sport shop with a girl friend of mine. It helped me to make ends meet.
Mr. JENNER. What was the name of that company?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. The name was Sigurd.
Mr. JENNER. And that was devoted to what--readymade clothes, ski clothes, and that sort of thing?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And did you attempt to sell those throughout Europe?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. In the process of doing so, did you then travel through Europe?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Where did you get the funds to finance that?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Very little funds--maybe a $1,000, $2,000, from my father, and whatever savings my girl friend had. She was an excellent saleswoman.
Mr. JENNER. Had you received any funds from your mother's participation in the estate you had?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I think that was the money that helped me to start--when I was 21 years old I received a couple of thousand dollars--although I did not take all the money away from my father, but at least part of it. Or maybe more than that--maybe $4,000 or $5,000. I really don't recall.
Mr. JENNER. There is some indication in the papers that it was as much as $10,000.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Maybe so.
Mr. JENNER. You just don't have----
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. It was a very successful operation, this business, Sigurd.
Mr. JENNER. Did you subsequently dissolve it?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Dissolved it, quarreled with my girl friend, decided to come to the States.
Mr. JENNER. Your brother had been over to see you in the meantime?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; and that is what, by the way, induced me into coming to the States, because my brother and his wife came to meet me. They sort of were not too much interested in meeting a mistress--let's face it--and eventually it led to a breakup between us, between my ex-girl friend and myself.
Mr. JENNER. And you came to this country in 1938?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. May of 1938.
Mr. JENNER. May of 1938, I think it was. What did you do to sustain yourself?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, I brought some money with me. I brought some money with me something like $10,000, I would say.
Mr. JENNER. And what did you immediately do in connection with that?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. What did I do immediately?
Mr. JENNER. I mean did you enter into----
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I started looking for a job, very unsuccessfully, if I may say so. In New York in those days, in 1938. I even started selling perfumes, I remember, for a company called Chevalier Garde.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have any interest in that company?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. No; just purely as a salesman. I even sold some materials for Shumaker and Company.
Mr. JENNER. Where were you residing then, with your brother?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; part of the time. Then I had my own room.
Mr. JENNER. Your brother was then living on Park Avenue, was he?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. 750?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And you--how long did you stay with him?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I think as soon as I arrived we went to spend the summer on Long Island, Belport, Long Island.
Mr. JENNER. And at Belport, you made what acquaintances?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Lots of people, but especially Mrs. Bouvier.
Mr. JENNER. Who is Mrs. Bouvier?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Mrs. Bouvier is Jacqueline Kennedy's mother, also her father and her whole family. She was in the process of getting a divorce from her husband. I met him, also. We were very close friends. We saw each other every day. I met Jackie then, when she was a little girl. Her sister, who was still in the cradle practically. We were also very close friends of Jack Bouvier's sister, and his father.
Mr. JENNER. Well, bring yourself along.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. That friendship more or less remained, because we still see each other, occasionally--Mrs. Auchincloss, and occasionally correspond.
Well, then, I realized there was no future selling perfume or materials in the State, and having had that background of the oil industry in my blood, because my father was the director of Nobel Enterprises, which is a large oil concern in Russia, which was eventally expropriated and confiscated, and I decided to come and try to work for an oil company. I arrived in Texas.
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, sir. Before we get there because that skips some things--one of your efforts was as an insurance salesman?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; that is right.
Mr. JENNER. And----
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. How did you know that?
Mr. JENNER. You were unsuccessful in that, were you?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Very unsuccessful.
Mr. JENNER. As a matter of fact, you didn't sell a single policy?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Not a single policy.
Mr. JENNER. Over what period of a time did you pursue that activity?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I even didn't pass my broker's examination. I tried to get an insurance broker's license. I studied to be an insurance broker in the State of New York. And I failed dismally that examination. So that was the end of my insurance business.
Mr. JENNER. Now, we have you up to the advent of World War II, which was-- this is about 1941.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. But before that I was in Texas and worked for Humble Oil Co.
Mr. JENNER. Before 1941 you had gone to Texas?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; in 1939.
Mr. JENNER. You went to Texas in 1939?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And how did that come about?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, I was interested in the oil industry and wanted to see in which way I could fit into the oil industry.
Mr. JENNER. Whom did you contact? How did you get there?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, I went by bus--to Texas by bus. But what actually helped me was that my sister-in-law, my wife's sister, had a very, very close friend in Louisiana, Mrs. Margaret Clark--Margaret Clark Williams, who had large oil properties, large estates in Louisiana. That is about the year 1939.
I got to Louisiana, as the guest, I remember--with my sister-in-law's aunt, Mrs. Edwards. And then I looked the situation around in New Orleans and decided to apply for a job with Humble Oil Co.
Mr. JENNER. In New Orleans?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. No. They had a branch office in New Orleans, but I had to apply for a job in Houston. So I went to Houston, and I applied for a job with Mr. Suman, who is vice president of Humble Oil Co. Also I met the chairman of the board of the Humble Oil Co. through mutual acquaintances.
Mr. JENNER. Did you return to Louisiana and do some work there?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I worked in Terebonne Parish, on a rig.
Mr. JENNER. You worked on a rig. This is physical work?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Physical work, yes; lifting pipes, cleaning machinery.
Mr. JENNER. In other words, starting from the ground floor?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. If there is such a thing in the oil business.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Absolutely.
Mr. JENNER. Whatever the bottom was, you were doing it?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, sir. Very well paid, by the way--a very well paid job, but very tough--at the time, you see, what good pay was at the time.
Mr. JENNER. I think we might at this time see if I can describe you for the record.
You are 6'1", are you not?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And now you weigh, I would say, about 195?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. Back in those days you weighed around 180.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. You are athletically inclined?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. And you have dark hair.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. No gray hairs yet.
Mr. JENNER. And you have a tanned--you are quite tanned, are you not?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And you are an outdoorsman?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. I have to tell you--I never expected you to ask me such questions. I also tried to get various jobs otherwise. I went to Arizona.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. De Mohrenschildt; one of the things I am trying to do is get your personality into the record, because many people have described your personality.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Very different, probably.
Mr. JENNER. I wouldn't say very different. But you would be surprised the kind of things that are said about you. I don't know that you would be surprised.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I know that I have friends, I have enemies.
Mr. JENNER. Well, everybody has.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I also went to Arizona, I remember, and tried to get a job as--I don't know if it is after this experience with Humble Oil Co.-- probably--over--to get a job as a polo instructor at the Arizona Desert School. Since we played polo in the military academy, I know how to play polo. I am not an expert player, but I do know how to play polo, and I am a good rider, and was a good rider. So I tried to get the job in the Arizona Desert School for Boys. And for some reason I could not get this job. There was a job available. I don't remember what the circumstances were. I never got this job. But I think it is after my experience with Humble Oil Co.
Mr. JENNER. You worked in the Louisiana oil fields as--what did you call it?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. A roughneck, or roustabout, it is called.
Mr. JENNER. And you pursued that how long?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I think 3 or 4 months.
Mr. JENNER. We are still in 1939?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Probably in 1939. And I got amoebic dysentery in Louisiana, and got very sick. I had an accident on the rig, was badly cut up-- something fell on my arm, and then I got dysentery. And, frankly, I do not recall whether they fired me or I resigned myself. I do not remember. Maybe both-- resigned and mutual agreement. But I remained very good friends with the chairman of the board of the company, Mr. Blaffer. And he gave me the idea already then to go in the oil business on my own. He says, "George, a man of your background and education, you should be working for yourself," and he explained to me the fundamentals of the oil promotion, if you know what I mean---drill wells, get a lease-- drill a well, find some money to drill that well.
Well, I said, "Mr. Blaffer, frankly it is a little above me to go in so early in my experience in the United States--to go into that type of business. I don't think I am capable enough to do that."
Mr. JENNER. Well, you didn't have the capital at that time, did you?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I didn't have the capital. But he said you could do it without capital.
Mr. JENNER. All right. When you left the Louisiana oil fields, what did you do?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Went back to New York, recovered from my amoebic dysentery. And I don't remember whether it is then that I tried insurance or not. It is possible then that I was trying to work at this insurance broker's deal. And then this friend of my sister-in-law's, Margaret Clark Williams, died, and left all of us a certain amount of money. My sister-in-law, Mrs. Edwards, myself--I don't remember what it was, $10,000 I guess, each. And what happened then-- yes, then comes the draft time in the U.S. Army.
Mr. JENNER. That is right; 1941.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And you are in New York City.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I am in New York City. I am called to the draft, and they found I have high blood pressure.
Mr. JENNER. With the advent of the war in Europe, did you---
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, I forgot to tell you.
Mr. JENNER. Did you volunteer?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. I was mobilized by the Polish Army in 1939--since being a candidate officer, I was mobilized by the Polish Army, got the papers in 1939 that I have to return to New York, and I did return to New York in 1939. That was just exactly after my Texas experience with the Humble Oil Co.
Mr. JENNER. Your Louisiana experience?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Louisiana, Texas, the same company. And it was just--I was intending to return to Poland, because my father was there---I had very close connection with my father. Somehow I felt maybe it was my duty to be in the Polish Army.
And it was too late. The last boat, Battory, which took the people--I never arrived in Poland.
I reported to the Polish Embassy here in Washington. It was too late to join the Polish Army. Maybe all for the best, because I probably wouldn't be alive today.
Mr. JENNER. You have some----
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. You have to refresh my memory, because, as I say, I never expected questions like this. Sometimes if I make a mistake, it is not my intention.
Mr. JENNER. Well, I don't suggest you are ever making a mistake. You are calling on your own recollection.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, yes; I am doing my best recollection.
Mr. JENNER. At this particular time, did you have some, oh, let me call it, tenuous connection with some movie business?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; that is right.
Mr. JENNER. Facts, Inc.?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. That is another venture I went into.
Mr. JENNER. This was 1941?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. What was it?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I have a distant cousin by the name of Baron Maydell.
Mr. JENNER. Now, he was a controversial man, was he not?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. A very controversial person.
Mr. JENNER. In what sense?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. In the sense that some people considered him pro-Nazi.
Mr. JENNER. He was accused of being, was he not, during this period, a German spy?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. No. I don't know that. But he had been an officer in the Czarist Army. He was a White Russian. And having lost everything through Communism, he saw the future of his return to Russia, back to his estates, through German intervention. Like many other White Russians. He possibly was more German than Russian--although he had been a Russian citizen, officer of the Czarist Army, and so forth and so on. A controversial person, no question about it. But I liked him. And he offered me to learn something about the making of documentary movies.
Mr. JENNER. Documentary?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes--which is Facts--what was it called? Film Facts Incorporated.
Mr. JENNER. Film Facts I think is the name of it.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. And he had a very interesting movie there of the Spanish revolution which he made. And this movie was shown all over the United States and was backed by--this, again, is my recollection, because it almost escaped from my mind. This movie was backed by quite a number of people here. I remember most of them---by Grace, who is president of Grace Lines today. So we decided with Maydell that we could make another documentary movie on the resistance of Poland. This is already--Poland had already been occupied. The movies were made in Poland, I think, by Americans. I don't recall that exactly--by Americans who were there during the occupation of Warsaw. And Maydell had these movies in his possession, and we decided to make a movie for the benefit of the Polish refugees.
Mr. JENNER. Resistance movement?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. And collected money to that effect, small amounts of money from the sympathizers of Poland. To me it was actually a very pleasant experience. I tried to do my best, number one, to make some money; number two, to help the Polish cause.
So I went to the Polish Consulate, made arrangements for the consul to be a sponsor of this movie. And we eventually made this movie, put it together. It was about 45 minutes long--a very interesting movie, very moving picture of the resistance. But financially it was not a success. I don't even recall why. Either Maydell never gave me any money or something. Anyway, we broke up our partnership.
The movie did make some money for the Polish resistance fund. I think they used it showing around the country. The Polish organizations in the United States used that movie to show and collect money for their own purpose.
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I remember the picture was called "Poland Will Never Die." It was an assembly job.
Mr. JENNER. Now, your interest was a business interest?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. No; we also cut it together. We put the music together. I learned a little bit about the technical end of it. We did not own the studio, but we used the studio on the west side in New York to have the technical facilities. Not very complicated. But we did it all together.
Mr. JENNER. Was your grandfather born in this country?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. No; great grandfather, or great, great grandfather.
Mr. JENNER. Sergius Von Mohrenschildt, born somewhere in Pennsylvania, later went to Russia, entered the oil business?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I will be darned. I didn't know that.
Mr. JENNER. I am not saying it is so.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't remember. We have in the family some Baltic Swede, an ancestor of ours, who was an officer of the Independence. Army. But his name was not Mohrenschildt. He was Baron Hilienfelt. My brother knows of that, because he is more interested in it. He became an officer in the Army of Independence, took the name of Ross. He was an officer in the Army of Independence, and then went back to Europe and died there. And somebody was telling me there was on his tomb in Sweden, I went later on to Sweden, and I was curious and inquired about it. It was said he was a lieutenant or captain in the American Army of Independence. So my brother, I think, because of that, being an older member of the family, had the right to be---what do you call it--a descendant---
Mr. JENNER. Of the American Revolution?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. He told me either he became a member of it, or could become a member of it. I have to ask him about that.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Did you once describe your work in the insurance business as the lousiest, stinkingest, sorriest type of business possible?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And that wine company--was that the Vintage Wine, Inc.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I also was doing some selling of wine in Vintage Wine, Inc.
Mr. JENNER. On a commission?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And you have mentioned the Shumaker Company.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Is the name Pierre Fraiss familiar to you?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; this is one of my best friends.
Mr. JENNER. Is he still alive?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. What business was he in then?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. He was then chief of export of Schumaker and Company.
Mr. JENNER. Did Mr. Fraiss have any connection with the French intelligence in the United States?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did you become involved with him in that connection?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. When?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, it was just probably in 1941, I presume, in 1941.
Mr. JENNER. What did you do?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, we collected facts on people involved in pro-German activity, and----
Mr. JENNER. This was anti-German activity?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. On behalf of the French intelligence in the United States?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I was never an official member of it, you see, but I worked with Pierre Fraiss, and it was my understanding that it was French intelligence.
Mr. JENNER. And did that work take you around the country?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Tell us about it.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, I think we went to Texas together again and tried to contact the oil companies in regard to purchases of oil for the French interests.
Mr. JENNER. Were the Germans also seeking to obtain oil?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; that is right.
Mr. JENNER. And----
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. We were trying to out-bid them. I think the United States were not at war yet at the time.
Mr. JENNER. That is right.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. And so the French intelligence devised a system whereby they could prevent the Germans and Italians from buying oil by out-bidding them on the free market. We went to Texas. We had some contacts there with oil companies. And also in California. There we met the Superior Oil people of California and other people, too, whose names now I have forgotten.
Mr. JENNER. When was that work completed?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, I could not tell you exactly, but I think it is about--it was not completed. We just somehow petered out.
Mr. JENNER. Were you compensated?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. No---just my expenses, traveling expenses, and daily allowance. It was handled by Mr. Fraiss. But no salary.
Mr. JENNER. Had you----
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I think this whole thing, when the United States got into war there was no more activity on their part, you know.
Mr. JENNER. Well, there was no need to outbid the Germans, because they could not buy oil here anyhow.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. So that is how it ended.
Mr. JENNER. You mentioned a Mrs. Williams. Was that Margaret Williams?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And she made a bequest to you of $5,000, wasn't it?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes--I think $5,000---I thought it was $10,000, frankly.
Mr. JENNER. Do you remember being interviewed in February 1945?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. By whom?
Mr. JENNER. Some agents of the Immigration and Naturalization Service.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. In 1945?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. They interviewed me a couple of times.
Mr. JENNER. Well, you have been interviewed more than once.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Well, at that time you are reported to have said that Mrs. Williams left you the sum of $5,000, and I suggest to you that your recollection was better in 1945 than it is now.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Now, at or about the time that you were doing work with Mr. Fraiss, did you meet a lady by the name of Lilia Pardo Larin?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. She was in this country, was she?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Tell us about that.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Oh, boy. Do you want to have everything about me? Okay. I met her through a Brazilian friend of mine.
Mr. JENNER. What was his name?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. The King of Bananas of Brazil--his name will come back to me. Dr.--I forgot his name. Anyway, a rich Brazilian, medical doctor, very wealthy man, who traveled between Brazil and New York. Just recently I was talking about him with the Brazilian Ambassador in Haiti, and he says he is still alive and doing very well.
Dr. Palo Muchado, Decio de Paulo Muchado. An enormously wealthy Brazilian, who calls himself the banana king, who liked American girls, the good life, and very good businessman at the same time.
Mr. JENNER. You liked American girls, too, didn't you?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I am not queer, you know. Although some people accuse me of that even--even of that. Not as much as some other people, you know-- because this girl really was the love of my life Lilia Larin. Anyway, both Machado and I fell in love with this girl. She was a divorcee.
Mr. JENNER. She wasn't divorced as yet, was she?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. She was divorced already once. But she had a husband some place in the background, who was a Frenchman.
Mr. JENNER. Guasco?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. With whom I got into a fistfight. Well, anyway, the best man won, as it goes in the book, and Lilia and I fell in love--I just got a discharge from the military service in the United States, 4-F, and she invited me to come with her to Mexico. This was my experience with the FBI. Really, it is so ridiculous that it is beyond comprehension.
Mr. JENNER. Well, on your way to Mexico----
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Around Corpus Christi--really, if we didn't have a sad story to discuss, the death of the President, you could laugh about some of the activity of the FBI, and the money they spend following false trails.
Mr. JENNER. Well, they don't know they are false when they are following them.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. I don't know whose advice they followed.
But, anyway, here we were about ready to enter Mexico and stopped for awhile in Corpus Christi. And there we decided to go to the beach, from Corpus Christi. I think my visa was not ready yet.
Mr. JENNER. You stayed at the Nueces Hotel in Corpus Christi?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; and we went to the beach.
On the way back from the beach, all of a sudden our car was stopped by some characters.
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. You went to Aransas Pass?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And when you were in Aransas Pass, what did you do?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. We swam; and probably stayed on the beach enjoying the sunshine.
Mr. JENNER. Now---
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. What do they say we did?
Mr. JENNER. Did you make take some photographs when you were in Aransas Pass?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Possibly; of each other.
Mr. JENNER. You took no photographs of a Coast Guard station at Aransas Pass.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't recall that.
Mr. JENNER. Did you make any sketches?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes--because I like to sketch. By the way, I forgot to tell you, I like to sketch. I sketched the dunes, the coastline, but not the Coast Guard station. Who gives a damn about the Coast Guard station in Aransas Pass?
Mr. JENNER. I can tell you that is what got you into trouble.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Is that so? Well, you know, you are the first one to tell me about that.
Mr. JENNER. I want to know this. This interest that you say you have, which I will bring out later, in sketching, in painting, water colors, and otherwise--you and this lady with whom you were in love were down at Aransas Pass, you went down there for the purpose of having an outing?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. I even have those sketches today, of the Bay of Corpus Christi, of the seashore near Aransas Pass.
Mr. JENNER. You apparently were not aware of the fact this country was then at war.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. But nobody told me there was any military installations around Aransas Pass.
Mr. JENNER. Well, you were seen sketching the countryside.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And that aroused suspicion.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. That is the whole thing.
Mr. JENNER. Now, you were driving cross-country, were you not, with this lady friend of yours?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And on the way back then from Aransas Pass----
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Some characters stopped the car and came out of the bushes, and they said, "You are a German spy." They said, "You are a German citizen, you are a German spy." It was very strange. Here is my Polish passport. So--they never said anything about sketching. I thought they were from some comedy actors.
Mr. JENNER. Didn't they identify themselves?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I think they said they were from the FBI.
Mr. JENNER. They might have been from some other government service.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Maybe some other government service. But I have the impression they told me they were from the FBI, and they followed me all the way from New York--all the way from New York.
Mr. JENNER. In any event, five men stopped you at that time, searched your car?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Searched the car, found absolutely nothing, except the water colors, the sketches. I still have the sketches.
Mr. JENNER. With that experience, did you proceed on into Mexico?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And----
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. They were very insulting to this Mexican lady, very insulting. And I think she made a complaint about them later on to the Mexican Ambassador. And being a vicious Mexican girl, she doesn't forget that. I think she told them they stole something from her. That I do not recall exactly.
Mr. JENNER. As near as I can tell, she never made any such complaint officially.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I think she told me she will complain officially.
Mr. JENNER. She complained, but she never complained anything was stolen.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. You reached Mexico City?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And--with this lady.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And you remained in Mexico how long?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, that is 5 months, 6 months--until they expelled me from Mexico.
Mr. JENNER. Does this refresh your recollection--that you made a statement in 1945 when you were questioned that you remained in Mexico City for approximately 9 months, not doing much of anything except painting and going around with Lilia?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. I did something. I invested some money in a sugar factory there. I visited a sugar company there, and the manager of the sugar company told me to invest some money in that outfit, because it was going to---the stock was going to go up, which I did. I made some nice money out of that investment.
Mr. JENNER. You had funds when you went into Mexico, did you not?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. You had some letters of credit?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Would that amount to around $6,000?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Probably.
Mr. JENNER. Did you travel to various places in Mexico during this 9 months with this lady?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Now----
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I had an apartment on my own in Mexico City, on Avenue De the main street of Mexico City. I don't recall the name. Paseo de la reforma.
Mr. JENNER. Towards the end of that 9 months you ran into some difficulty in Mexico, did you not?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Boy, did I get in difficulty.
Mr. JENNER. Was there a man by the name of Maxino Comacho?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. General in the Mexican Army.
Mr. JENNER. And as a result of--just give me that in capsule form.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I think he wanted to take my girl friend away from me. We were going to get married.
Mr. JENNER. You were serious about that?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Very serious. She was getting a divorce. I think by the time she got to Mexico---she already got a Mexican divorce. I am sure she did. She was already free.
Mr. JENNER. She had a Mexican divorce, but there was some question about whether it was good in the United States?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right; something like that. Anyway, she was getting a divorce. She was an exceedingly beautiful person. We thought about getting married. And then this character intervened and had me thrown out of the country.
Mr. JENNER. I am not interested in his accusation, but he made some accusation?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. He did, really?
Mr. JENNER. I am asking you.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. No; no accusation. He said, "You are persona non grata in Mexico." I actually went to the American Embassy, as far as I remember, and said, "I am a resident of the United States, and why am I being thrown out of the country?" I don't know if they have done anything about it. Anyway, they suggested for me to leave, and go back to the States.
Mr. JENNER. You didn't leave immediately, did you?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I went into hiding for a few days, because some Mexican friends tried to have it all fixed. I remember the names of those Mexicans who tried to help me.
Mr. JENNER. Manuel Garza; was he one of them?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And your attorney?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; and Cuellar, another attorney. He is still a good friend of mine.
Mr. JENNER. You then returned to the United States?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. They said, "That is the best way for you, to leave, because you cannot fight against the constitutional forces of Mexico."
Mr. JENNER. While in Mexico, you engaged in no espionage for anybody?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. No.
Mr. JENNER. You were in love with this lady?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And you saw her frequently, and her friends and other friends, and did some traveling around Mexico?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Where did you get the money to do that?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, $6,000, you know. And then we shared alike. And I told you that life in Mexico was very cheap at the time. You could live on a hundred dollars a month. One of my best friends there at the time was a young MacArthur boy.
Mr. JENNER. General MacArthur's son?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Nephew, the son of MacArthur, the playwright. He was also living in Mexico, very close friends. We made some trips together. The son of John MacArthur.
Mr. JENNER. You eventually returned to America, to the United States?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. You went back to New York?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. By train?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. As a matter of fact, you went by chair car?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. That I didn't remember. How did you know that? I don't remember, frankly. Those FBI people are excellent in following a chair car. But, believe me, they are very often----
Mr. JENNER. Was it about this time when you returned that you started to work on your book, "A Son of the Revolution"?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Now, we are in what year--about 1942, 1943?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, about that.
Mr. JENNER. 1942, I think.
Now, upon your return to New York, what did you do?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I was working on that book. I sold that interest in the sugar company--that is, the Mexican outfit I told you about--and then I remember once I went to Palm Beach.
Mr. JENNER. Now----
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. What else did I do then?
Mr. JENNER. When you reached Palm Beach you met the lady who became your first wife, Dorothy Pierson?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Tell me who was Dorothy Pierson?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Dorothy Pierson was an attractive girl, the daughter of a local real estate man whose mother was married to an Italian, Cantagalli, Lorenzo Cantagalli, from Florence. And the mother and daughter came back to the United States during the war. She was the daughter of Countess Cantagalli by the first husband, who was an American. That is why her name was Pierson. And, anyway, Dorothy and I fell in love with each other and got married.
Mr. JENNER. She was quite young, was she not?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Very young.
Mr. JENNER. About 17 or 18?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And you subsequently married where?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. In New York.
Mr. JENNER. In New York City?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. New York City.
Mr. JENNER. And that marriage subsequently ended in divorce, did it?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. When?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. About a year later.
Mr. JENNER. You were married just a short time?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Just a short time. A child was born.
Mr. JENNER. There was a child born of that marriage?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And that child's name was Alexandra?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. Is she still alive?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. I will deal with her subsequently, if I might. The divorce took well, we might as well close up with Lilia. You never married her?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. No.
Mr. JENNER. When you got back to the United States----
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. We pursued correspondence, and I intended to marry her, and go back to Mexico. But there is no way of getting back to Mexico.
Mr. JENNER. The records indicate that you made some effort here in Washington to obtain reentry into Mexico, and you were unable to do so.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. And that Lilia attempted to assist you.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And she attempted to come into this country?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. She also was persona non grata at the moment, is that right?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. She had two sons?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. One of them was in Racine, Wis.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Both of them were in military academy--young boys.
Mr. JENNER. And in any event, that eventually petered out?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. And you met Dorthy Pierson in Palm Beach, Fla.?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And you subsequently married her in New York City, on the 16th of June 1943?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. That is the date. The dates of my marriage are very vague now in my mind. I am taking your word for it.
Mr. JENNER. Well, I don't want you to take my word for it.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. It is probably correct. You must have it some place.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall your daughter's birthday--it was on Christmas Day, was it not?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. 1943?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. During the period you were married to Dorothy in New York City, what did you do, if anything, other than work on your proposed book?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, I had an exhibition of my paintings.
Mr. JENNER. Now, I want to get into that. While you were in Mexico, did you do some painting?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I did a lot of painting--a whole tremendous file of paintings in Mexico.
Mr. JENNER. And did you subsequently exhibit those paintings?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Where?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Newton Gallery, New York, 57th Street.
Mr. JENNER. And did those paintings receive comment from the critics?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. The newspapers wrote about them, that they were original, but the sales were hardly successful, if I may say so.
Mr. JENNER. Do you still have some of those paintings?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; some I have given away, but I still have some.
Mr. JENNER. They are water colors?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Water colors, washes; yes. But no military installation--the tropical jungle. Girls, tropical jungle, Mexican types--I am very fond of Mexico. Roderick MacArthur and I tried to make a trip at the time through the wilderness of Mexico together in an old Ford which belonged to him; the road did not exist yet, so we went together in this old broken down Ford, drove, drove and drove a couple of days with no roads, and finally one evening--- -
Mr. JENNER. This is in Mexico?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; during that time.
Mr. JENNER. During the 9 months you were there?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; we hit a steel pole sticking out in the middle of the trail, and the whole car disintegrated under us. So we walked back a couple of days in order to get back to Mexico City. We left the car right there.
Mr. JENNER. Now----
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. If you see him in Chicago--I will write to him again; and I hope to see him.
Mr. JENNER. You came to Texas in 1944, did you not?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. 1944.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall making a loan at the----
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, yes.
Mr. JENNER. Russian Student Fund?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. After my divorce I decided that I am still interested in this oil business, and all my pursuits in various directions are not too successful, so I should go back to school and study geology and petroleum engineering.
Mr. JENNER. Had you made inquiry at the Colorado School of Mines?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. Tried Colorado School of Mines, Rice Institute, and University of Texas.
Mr. JENNER. All right. You are now about 33 years old, somewhere in that neighborhood?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. During these years you led sort of a bohemian life, did you not?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. Well, you see---bohemian and trying to make a buck, as you might call it.
Mr. JENNER. I am trying to bring out your personality.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. But you see the main reason I actually came to the United States is to look for a country which did not have-- which was a melting pot, because I am a melting pot myself, as you can see. I changed from one country to another, a complete mixture. So I thought that would fit me right. And eventually it did. It took a long time to get adjusted to it. The first five years are very difficult in the United States. I didn't speak English very well. And it was just tough going. Fortunately I had friends, acquaintances, and a lot of relations. But, otherwise, I probably would have starved. And it did actually happen that I did starve occasionally. So I decided to go----
Mr. JENNER. You were young and full of energy?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. While working for the Humble Oil Co. I said that a man without the education in that particular field--I did not have the background of geology or petroleum engineering, except that I kept on studying by myself. I didn't have much chance to succeed. I was wrong, by the way. I should have followed Mr. Blaffer's advice and gone in the oil business, and I would have been a multimillionaire today.
Mr. JENNER. Well, you might still be.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, I probably will be. But really that was--he was the man, the only man who gave me the right advice of all my friends and acquaintances. He said, "George, go on your own and try to speculate on oil leases and drill wells on your own," which is the basis of the oil industry. "We will give you a lease, you can promote some money to drill on it, and here you have it." And that is what happened. That is the origin of many, many of my friends in Texas who are very wealthy.
Mr. JENNER. All right. You came to Texas----
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Came to Texas----
Mr. JENNER. 1944.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. That was following your divorce from Dorothy Pierson?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. Got a loan.
Mr. JENNER. You entered----
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Entered the University of Texas, and School of Geology, and Petroleum Engineering as my minor--major in petroleum geology and minor in petroleum engineering. And with a fantastic effort and speed I succeeded in getting my master's degree in petroleum geology and minor in petroleum engineering in 1945, I think.
Mr. JENNER. You received your master's in 1945, did you not?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And in petroleum geology?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; with minor in petroleum engineering.
Mr. JENNER. Did you pursue your studies further?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. No; well, I wrote a dissertation. I pursue my studies as the time goes by. But that was the end of my education in American schools.
Mr. JENNER. Now, while you were at the University of Texas, did you serve as an instructor----
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. In French.
Mr. JENNER. You had no tenure there? You were not a professor?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. No; an instructor in French, to make some additional money.
Mr. JENNER. When did you complete your work at the University of Texas--all of your studies?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. In the fall of 1945.
Mr. JENNER. How long were you at the University of Texas?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I think about 2 years.
Mr. JENNER. Now, following your obtaining your master's degree at the University of Texas, did you enter into business?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I got a job waiting for me in Venezuela, the Pantepec Oil Co. in Venezuela.
Mr. JENNER. What was the nature of that work?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I worked as a field engineer.
Mr. JENNER. In Venezuela?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. Very good salary; pleasant conditions. But eventually fought with the vice president.
Mr. JENNER. What?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Eventually I got into some personal trouble with the vice president, and this time was not kicked out but through mutual agreement it was decided between Warren Smith, who was my president, and a close friend, that I should resign and also----
Mr. JENNER. When did you leave that position?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Some time in 1946.
Mr. JENNER. I interrupted you. You were going to add something.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Some time in 1946. And also I wanted to come back to the States to renew my citizenship paper application, because I would lose my citizenship papers by staying in Venezuela too long, you see.
It was an American company all right, but I think it was incorporated in Venezuela.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have to have a passport to get to that position in Venezuela?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; well, I think I still have my Polish passport. But I had a reentry permit to the States.
Mr. JENNER. So you returned to the United States in 1946?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Then what did you do?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, I arrived back through New York, but stayed a very short time, and went to Texas again.
Mr. JENNER. What town?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. To Houston. To look for a job. I did not want to be in a tropical part of the United States, in a hot part. I was trying to find a job somewhere in the northern part of the United States. And then I heard that there is a job available as an assistant to the chairman of the Rangely Field Engineering Committee.
Mr. JENNER. At Rangely, Colo.?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And what was the field engineer's name? He is now dead, is he not?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; Joe Zorichak.
Mr. JENNER. There was an assistant. What was his name? There were two of you assisting the chairman?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't remember the other assistant's name. I was the only one in the office. Later on--we were part of the group of all the oil companies operating there. But we were the only ones actually working for the committee. I don't remember.
Mr. JENNER. I will find it here in a moment.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. You see, this committee was a consulting organization set up by, I think, 8 or 10 oil companies operating in Rangely Field, which is the largest field in Colorado, in the Rocky Mountains. It still is.
Mr. JENNER. Does the name James Gibson sound familiar to you?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. No; Gibson--James Gibson; yes. But he was not in our oufit. He was an engineer for Standard Oil of California. But he worked very close to us. In other words, he was an employee of the Standard Oil of California.
Mr. JENNER. Does the name J. M. Bunce sound familiar to you?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Who is he?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. He was a representative of a pumping outfit from California who sold oil well pumps.
Mr. JENNER. Now, this Rangely Engineering Committee was formed by the various oil companies?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And they were operating in the Rangely, Colo. oil field, is that correct?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And for the purpose of compiling statistics and engineering data for the entire field.?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. No, yes; this and also to allocate production to various wells in the field, because we didn't have any regulatory body in Colorado at the time. We actually applied a certain formula to each well to see how much each well would be allowed to produce. This was our main job, you know.
Then, of course, our job was to coordinate the technical advances in that field and promote the new methods of drilling producing, to cut down expenses in the field. Among other things, we introduced diamond drilling there, drilling with diamond bits, which eventually became very, very successful.
Mr. JENNER. Now, this was what--1947?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. 1946, 1947. I stayed there, I think, about 3 1/2 years, something like that. 3 years, maybe.
Mr. JENNER. Now, at this time you met and married your second wife, did you not?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Phyllis Washington?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Now, tell us about that a little bit.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I went on a vacation to New York, met a very pretty girl, and she was willing to follow me in the wilderness of Colorado, which she did. She was young and a little bit wild. But very, very attractive and adventurous. And she came with me to Colorado--without being married.
Her father was with the State Department, Walter Washington.
But I didn't know him.
Mr. JENNER. She was an adopted child?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Her name originally was Wasserman?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; something like that. And she was a beautiful girl who decided to come to Colorado with me. She stayed with me, we fell in love. She created a terrible confusion in Colorado. Imagine an international beauty with bikinis. I don't know if it is for the record. With bikinis, walking around the oil fields. But she was a wonderful girl, wonderful girl. She gave up the possibility of going to Spain, where her father was appointed charged d' affaires at the time. She decided she would rather stay with me in Colorado in the wilderness.
And I will tell you, that was a terrible place. That was the last boomtown in America, Rangely, the last boomtown in the United States. We lived in shacks, we lived in 40-degree below zero temperature, mud. It is the roughest place you ever saw in your life.
Mr. JENNER. You eventually tired of Rangely, Colo., and moved over to Aspen, did you not?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I didn't move to Aspen. I just had a little cabin in Aspen. I had a cabin in Aspen, and would go there on weekends. But then I became chairman.
Joe Zorichak resigned his position and moved to Dallas as assistant president of the American Petroleum Institute, assistant to the president of the API. And I was appointed to replace him.
Mr. JENNER. Was it about this time that you took residence in Aspen?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, no; about that time, I would say--I didn't take residence. I just had a cabin in Aspen.
But I commuted between Rangely and Aspen.
Mr. JENNER. That is quite a commutation. It is 165 miles, isn't it?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Nothing for the oil field.
Mr. JENNER. But it takes a long time to get 165 miles.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. 3 hours. But naturally I would go there on the weekend and come back. Probably they accuse me of spending all my time in Aspen. But, anyway, what finally happened is, good or bad, we decided to sever connections with the Rangely Engineering Committee. They decided to stop completely the Rangely Engineering Committee.
Mr. JENNER. You had some difficulties with them before they decided to break it up, didn't you?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't remember too much of a difficulty.
Mr. JENNER. Was there something about your spending too much time over at Aspen, and not being---
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, they never told me that. But possibly.
Mr. JENNER. The severance of your relationship was mutual?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, I think so. I don't think--you may call it I was fired, but I don't think so. As far as I remember, we just got together with the manager of Texaco in Denver and he told me, "George, we are just going to stop the operation at Rangely Field of the Engineering Committee." I was the only one left, you see. So I said fine, stop it.
Mr. JENNER. And this was about when?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, I forgot to tell you. Since you are interested in my character--is that it?
Mr. JENNER. Yes, of course.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. At Rangely, Colo., it stopped being an operating oil field, and it became a statistical job. When I moved there first it was the greatest boomtown and the greatest drilling place in the United States. We had 30 rigs going. It was very interesting.
Every day we had new problems. It was a very active life. Then at the end of my stay there was no work practically except to compile the statistical report. So naturally I started going to Aspen more often. I don't think I ever had any complaint against me.
Mr. JENNER. You were interested a great deal initially when the field was being developed.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. When it degenerated, if I may use that term, into a statistical assembly, you lose interest, spent more time over at Aspen, and there were some disagreements about that, a difference of opinion, and your employers questioned it.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. Was there any problem about your savoir-faire, for example, attitude with respect to keeping expenses?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Maybe so. But you know, our salary was very small there, and so we had to show certain expenses. They never questioned me. But possibly they considered my living expenses were too high. But I was the only one to do the job, instead of two. I kept the budget, more or less, at the same level, maybe lower.
RIGHT SIDE OF PAGE IS CUT OFF.
eventually--she drank, also, an awful lot. Today she is an alcoholic--poor girl.
Mr. JENNER. You entered the oil consulting business in Denver?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. First of all, as just an ordinary consultant. I got helped by a friend of mine who has a small oil company in Denver.
Mr. JENNER. What was his name?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Jimmy Donahue. And he facilitated by giving his office, the secretary and so on. Because it is rather expensive to start on your own.
But very soon afterwards I started getting consulting jobs--doing evaluations on the wells and things like that. And one night--this will be interesting for you, how to start an oil business--one night I was driving through Oklahoma, tired as hell, and I said to myself, by God, everybody is making money in the oil business except me, I am just a flunky here for all these big operators--I should go in the oil business on my own, really in the oil business, drilling and producing, which was interesting to me. And then I recalled that my exnephew, Eddie Hooker, in New York, asked me to go in business with him. He had visited me in Colorado and was very much interested in the work I had done. I gave him a telephone call from some place in Oklahoma.
I said, "Eddie, how about it?"
He was working for Merrill Lynch at the time.
And he said, "George, I am ready. I am tired of Merrill Lynch."
Mr. JENNER. Merrill Lynch, Fenner and Beane at that time?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. "I am tired of that Merrill Lynch, Fenner and Beane."
We formed a limited partnership together.
Mr. JENNER. And that is the partnership of Hooker and De Mohrenschildt?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And that was when--1950?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I think so---1950.
Mr. JENNER. And did it last very long?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. It lasted, I think, 3 years.
Mr. JENNER. About 2 years?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. 2 or 3 years.
Mr. JENNER. And----
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Now, We made money, we lost money, but it was a pleasant relationship. We are still very good friends.
Mr. JENNER. What did you do in connection with that partnership?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, I did buying of the leases, doing the drilling, and helped him in New York, also, to raise money.
Mr. JENNER. He handled the financial end, or raising of money end?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And you the field work?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. Sometimes--we opened an office in New York, a small office. He was in New York most of the time. I was in Denver. Our first well was a dry hole, a disastrous dry hole. But our second well was a producer. We made some production. But never anything big.
Mr. JENNER. Now----
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Eventually I returned to Texas from Denver, because I had always retained some good friends in Texas, and they suggested, one of them who participated in our well, first venture suggested that, "George, you will do better in Texas, because Wyoming is too expensive"--a well costs $200,000 or $300,000 in Wyoming, you know--in Wyoming or Colorado.
Mr. JENNER. Now, when you were in partnership with Mr. Hooker, your field work and discovery work was in Wyoming and Colorado, is that correct?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. No. We started by drilling our first well in Wyoming, operating from Denver. And we had--we were snowbound there, we paid the rig time for a hell of a long time. To make the story short, our first venture was quite a failure. One of the reasons we finally split partnership with Eddie Hooker is that he is a very wealthy boy. He comes from a very wealthy family. And he wanted the oil business to make millions.
My reason to be in the oil business is to make a reasonable living, and eventually build up some production.
On our first venture in Wyoming, on the very first one, after we bought the leases, and before starting drilling, we got an offer from another company to sell out for a very substantial profit, without drilling a well--they would do it. Naturally, I told Ed we should do that instead of running a tremendous risk of drilling our own well. Well, he said if they want to buy it it means that we have something there, the usual story.
I was a little more conservative--I said better sell out and try to find something less risky.
He said if we hit it, we are millionaires right away--which was true--we had a huge block, of 12,000 acres, something like that.
Well, from then on, the next venture was in Texas, and we drilled quite a few successful wells, quite a few dry holes, too.
Mr. JENNER. You returned to Texas?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. What year?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Abilene, Tex., we had the headquarters--that was the center of the small size independent operators at the time.
Mr. JENNER. What was the name of the hotel at which you stayed?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Wooten Hotel.
Mr. JENNER. And the partnership was still in existence?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. Our partnership was broken up after I married Miss Sharples. It was, frankly, a personal thing.
Mr. JENNER. I think this is a good time to stop, because that is the next phase I want to get into. We can go to lunch.
(Whereupon, at 12:35 p.m., the proceeding was recessed.)
Testimony Of George S. De Mohrenschildt Resumed
The proceeding reconvened at 2 p.m.
Mr. JENNER. On the record.
Before we start on the next phase of your life, I would like to go back a minute to your father.
You left there about 1931 or 1932?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; but I came back many times.
Mr. JENNER. You came back to see him?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; almost every summer vacation.
Mr. JENNER. Now, what happened to your father, with particular reference to World War II?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. He was living in Wilno, the same town that I went to school in, during the war, and I arranged for his visa to come to the United States at the time.
Mr. JENNER. Now, is this at a time when you were in this country?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I was in this country, and I knew that--this was before the outbreak of the war. I arranged for the visa to come to America, and he did not take advantage of it.
Mr. JENNER. That invasion was in September of 1939.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. 1939; yes.
Mr. JENNER. And you made these arrangements before September 1939?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Before September 1939. And instead of that, you know, he did not take advantage of those arrangements. Maybe he was too old, decided not to come to the United States. And then there was the German invasion of Poland and the Russian invasion on the other, and he happened to be in the Russian part of Poland, and naturally went into hiding.
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. You mean Russian part in the sense that the Russians invaded Poland?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. To meet the Germans who were invading Poland from the other side?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. So he then became engulfed by the Russians?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. He became engulfed in advance of the Russian Army and had to go into hiding because he had a sentence of life exile to Siberia against him. And at that time the Germans and the Russians were not at war yet, so the Russians and the Germans made an agreement that all the people of German or Baltic or Swedish origin could go to Germany, and they could declare themselves openly and go to a special German commission set up for that effect in various towns.
Mr. JENNER. You say declare themselves openly. What do you mean by that?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Declare themselves that they are willing to go and live in Germany, instead of living in Russia.
Mr. JENNER. Declare allegiance to the German Government?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right--declare allegiance to the German Government, and declare themselves Volkdeutsche, which means of Germanic origin. Russia had many millions of people of that type, an enormous German colony. So the Germans did it in order to get all those Germans from the Volga Province into their own country. And all the other people, like my father. And he declared himself willing to go to Germany, and the Germans took him into Germany. He would rather be with the Germans than with the Communists, and spent the rest of his life
Mr. JENNER. Was your father still anti-Communist?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; very strongly anti-Communist exceedingly strongly anti-Communist, almost fanatically so. Naturally, he had the sentence against him. And then he spent the rest of his life in Germany and was killed at the end of the war in an air raid, as far as we know--some air raid hit that place where he lived.
Mr. JENNER. Do you know what town it was?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I don't know the town, but it is an old castle in Oldenburg. It is near the Danish border. My brother is going to go right now there to visit his tomb, because neither of us had the time to go and see that place. But he is in Europe now, and he will go and see the place where he was buried.
Eventually, we received some of his papers and documents and letters through some German friends who stayed there with him.
Mr. JENNER. Now, I take it he was--we can at least fairly say that he had sympathies, or was sympathetic with the German cause?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I remember we exchanged letters with him during the war through some friends in Argentina and in Japan, before Japan got into the war. My father wrote me a letter in which he said, "George, the Nazis are no good, and Germany is going to lose the war, but I prefer to be in Germany than in Soviet Russia. At least I am free and nobody is bothering me."
It was the policy of the Germans to protect the people who had some positions in Czarist Russia. But he never became pro-Nazi. He was too clear thinking for that. He liked the Germans all right, but he was not pro-Nazi. But he hated Communism. That was his life's hatred.
Mr. JENNER. Now, we have you back in New York City--this is when we went to lunch--around 1953--1952, 1953.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Your partnership with Mr. Hooker had terminated.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. No, no; still active. I think it was in 1952--because I was not married---we still had the partnership. I was visiting Ed Hooker in New York at that particular time, and through him I met my next wife, my last wife.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, who was she?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Wynne Sharples.
Mr. JENNER. She at that time was a student?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. She was just graduating from the medical school at the College of Physicians and Surgeons, Columbia University. That was her last year. And she was late in her studies. She was 28 or 29 years old at that time. So she had missed a couple of years, you see. And we fell in love with each other and decided to get married.
Mr. JENNER. Tell me about the Sharples family.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. The Sharples family is from Philadelphia, Philadelphia Quakers. He is in the centrifugal processing business and also in the oil business. And I had dealings with his nephew for many years.
Mr. JENNER. What is his name?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Butler, Samuel Butler, Jr. He runs the oil end of Mr. Sharples' operations. And they had a small interest in Rangely Field. That is how I got acquainted with Mr. Butler.
So we knew about each other before--my wife's father, and so on and so forth--and--the daughter asked his advice, whether she should marry such an adventurous character like me, and the father said, all right---obviously had sufficient good information from Butler about me. Butler was my best man at the wedding.
Mr. JENNER. Best man at your wedding to Miss Sharples?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; Sam Butler.
There were several ushers. He was one of the ushers. I don't remember who was the best man. My brother was the best man. He was one of ushers. So we got married.
Mr. JENNER. Was the Sharples family wealthy?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Very wealthy.
Mr. JENNER. Socially prominent?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Socially prominent. But not too interested in society, because they are Quakers, you know. But my wife is interested.
Mr. JENNER. She has a nickname?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; Didi.
Mr. JENNER. Some of the people apparently--voluntarily--they know her with that nickname Didi.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. We got married, I think, after her graduation immediately in the Unitarian Church in Chestnut Hills.
Mr. JENNER. What is that--a suburb of Philadelphia?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. A suburb of Philadelphia. And she moved to Dallas, and I moved to Dallas, also, from Abilene, where I used to live, so she could continue her work in the medical field, and to take her residence in the hospital in Dallas. She was a resident physician----
Mr. JENNER. In what hospital?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. In the Baylor Hospital.
Mr. JENNER. Baylor University?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Was it university connected?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't remember. But it is Baylor Hospital, in Dallas. It is not the same as Baylor University. It is called Baylor Hospital.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. And she stayed there as a resident. I worked very often in my office in Dallas, instead of Abilene, and continued my partnership with Ed Hooker. But there developed a tremendous animosity between Ed Hooker's wife and my wife, Didi.
Mr. JENNER. And Ed Hooker's wife was----
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Was an ex-model, very attractive girl, Marion. And probably my wife snubbed her or something. She didn't come from such a prominent family.
Anyway, there was a great deal of animosity there. And Ed told me, "George, you are a fool to marry this girl--she is nuts." She had had nervous breakdowns.
Mr. JENNER. This is Mr. Hooker's wife?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. No; that is my ex-wife, Didi Sharples. She is very high strung--she is a very high-strung person, and had nervous breakdowns while going to medical school. I don't know if it is interesting for you, all those details.
Mr. JENNER. Well, I think not as to that. I am interested, though--she came to Dallas with you?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. She came to Dallas to live with me. We had an apartment first. Then we bought a house jointly, a farm, a small farm outside of Dallas. And then she had--we had two children, Sergei, and a girl, Nadejeda, whom we called Nadya because the name is very difficult. It is my aunt's name, and Sergei is my father's name.
Mr. JENNER. When were those children born?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. One year difference in 1953 and 1954.
Mr. JENNER. Your son was born in 1953 and your daughter in 1954?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. I think you were about to tell me some differences arose, you thought, between Mr. Hooker's wife and your wife.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And did that have an effect on your partnership?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; it was more or less, I would say, a social problem and personal dislike. Ed is very much devoted to his wife. He told me one day, "We cannot continue this partnership in such unpleasant circumstances, and I think we should break our partnership and sell out what we have." We had some oil properties and we sold it out and divided the proceeds.
Oh, yes--also, Ed was dissatisfied that I moved away from the oilfield--another reason we broke our partnership. Because I was staying in the oilfields before that all the time. But now I moved to Dallas, and I could not be right in the center of the oil activity, according to him. It turned out to be that this actually was much better for the oil business, to be in Dallas than to be in Abilene.
Mr. JENNER. Why is that?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, because we are more or less in the center of things than just in a small hick town, you see.
Mr. JENNER. You----
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. At the same time about, when we were breaking this partnership, my wife's uncle, Col. Edward J. Walz, from Philadelphia, who is an investment man and a man who is fascinated by the oil business, offered me to form a partnership with him, and we formed a partnership just about the same time.
Mr. JENNER. Have you identified this new man?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; Col. Edward J. Walz, this was my wife's uncle, Miss Sharples' uncle much younger than his--than her mother, but a man of substance, from Philadelphia--with whom we developed friendly relationship. He liked me and I liked him. And we decided to form a partnership, and we called this partnership Waldem Oil Co.--with the idea of doing the same thing I did with Ed Hooker--that I would do the fieldwork and he would do, more or less, the financial end of the business in Philadelphia.
We had several very successful dealings together. On our first drilling venture we found oil. I kept producing that little field for quite some time.
Mr. JENNER. What field?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Post field, in Texas--a small part of this field belonged to us, and we kept on producing. We did other operations in the oil business, selling leases, buying leases, and things like that.
But we didn't do anything spectacular because he never could provide any large amounts of money for anything spectacular. We did small things. It was a small operation. But we always made money together. Eventually, after my wife and I got divorced.
Mr. JENNER. Now, you mention divorce. You and Wynne Sharples were divorced?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And when did that take place?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. That, I think, was in 1957, I guess, or 1956. We were married for 5 years.
Mr. JENNER. Well, it must have been 1957, then.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. 1957, yes; it turned out to be that both of our children had cystic fibrosis--it is a terrible illness of genetic nature. The children who have it have no hope to recover, as yet.
Now, my ex-wife and I started a foundation, National Foundation for Cystic Fibrosis in Dallas, of which Jacqueline Kennedy was the honorary chairman.
Now, my ex-wife says that I didn't have much to do with this foundation, this Cystic Fibrosis Foundation, but actually I did, because I collected most of the money from my Dallas friends. It started with very little we--started with $10,000 or $20,000, and now it is a $2 million foundation, with headquarters in New York. Last year I was chairman of this foundation in Dallas for the first public subscription to our Cystic Fibrosis Fund for the Dallas children, and we got $25,000.
Now my son, Sergei, died from cystic fibrosis in 1960.
By the way, the reason for our divorce, in addition to whatever disagreements we had, which was not very important, was the fact that we both obviously have a tendency for cystic fibrosis, a genetic affinity for cystic fibrosis, and the children born from such a marriage have a very poor chance to survive. She wanted more children. She was scared to have more children with cystic fibrosis. The little girl is still alive. She lives in Philadelphia.
Mr. JENNER. She is with her mother?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. With her mother, yes.
Mr. JENNER. Is her mother pursuing her profession in Philadelphia?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Her mother is not actually practicing but she is in charge of the Cystic Fibrosis Research Institute in Philadelphia, she is a trustee of Temple University.
But her husband, Dr. Denton----
Mr. JENNER. She remarried?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. She remarried.
Mr. JENNER. What is his-full name?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Dr. Robert Denton. He is the doctor who treated our children for cystic fibrosis. At present he is a professor of pediatrics and assistant professor of pediatrics at the University of Pennsylvania.
Mr. JENNER. I don't want to go into the litigation. There was some litigation, was there not, between you and your former wife with respect to some trust?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Trust fund.
Mr. JENNER. Established for whom?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Established for Sergei, for our son. Now, I had to contribute, according to the divorce, $125 a month for the support of the children, which I did, and she put that money in a trust fund. She did not want to use that money for the upkeep of the children, because she is independently wealthy, and eventually she refused to accept any more contribution of money from me. I objected on my side to the fact that I was removed away--that the children were very far away from me. They were living in Boston at the time, and I encountered constantly difficulties in regard to my visitation rights of the children. Well, anyway, finally all of a sudden, after Sergei died, a long time afterwards, I received a notification that we inherited, my ex-wife and I--we inherited this trust fund.
Mr. JENNER. Which trust fund?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Established for Sergei, our son.
Mr. JENNER. Who established the trust fund?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Her grandfather, my boy's grandfather, Mr. Sharples, plus the money that came from my monthly contribution for the children's support--whatever money she could put in it. Anyway, it was a small trust fund of $24,000, which, eventually was split up between my ex-wife and myself--about $12,000 each. There was a litigation in regard to that, but I don't know if it is interesting for you.
Mr. JENNER. No---I have the complaints. Your ex-wife--Dr. Denton lives in Philadelphia?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And she does research work, does she?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. She doesn't do the actual research. She is more or less running the administration end of a second foundation. She was eventually asked to leave the National Cystic Fibrosis Foundation which we had formed together in Dallas, and which became this national foundation.
She developed some difficulty with the other trustees and was asked to resign, or resigned herself---I don't know for sure the other trustees say they asked her to resign. She says she was forced to resign. And she formed with the help of her father and her friends another foundation in Philadelphia which is much smaller, and I think which does also research on cystic fibrosis. And she is running the administrative end of it. She is not doing the actual research, but she is running this foundation as an administrator.
Mr. JENNER. Do you visit your child?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I used to. Right now I have a great deal of difficulty in visiting my daughter, Nadya, because she wants to live with me, you see.
Mr. JENNER. The daughter?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. The daughter, yes. And she thinks that by living in Texas her health will improve. Now, the mother thinks it is just the opposite that if she lives in Texas that she will die, because of the inadequate medical facilities. So we had rather bitter litigation last year as to--I tried to take the custody away from her, because of various reasons--mainly, I think that the daughter would be happier with me, and with my new wife. And the little girl has developed a tremendous liking for my new wife. But the court decided that--we went into such bitter fighting, that I stopped this litigation in the middle, and I said, "I am going to Haiti anyway. Let's leave things as they are for a year. I am not going to see Nadya for a year, on the condition that she will get all my letters, all my gifts, and that I get a medical report from her every 4 months." And the poor girl is also under psychiatric treatment.
Mr. JENNER. Who is?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Nadya, my little girl. She is under psychiatric treatment--because of her illness, and also she developed a dislike for the other members of her family, for her half brothers and sisters, because they are healthy, and she is not.
Mr. JENNER. I take it that your former wife--there had been some children born of her present marriage?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; who have no cystic fibrosis.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, when the divorce took place, your wife filed suit in Philadelphia, didn't she?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. No; the suit was filed in Dallas.
Mr. JENNER. She commenced it?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did you resist it?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. No; we came to an agreement that we would get a divorce anyway. I don't know what you call it in legal terms. The lawyers made an agreement that, here it is, you see. We decided to sell our house and settle our accounts.
Mr. JENNER. Property?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Property settlement. And I think it was very fair for her, just as my lawyer, Morris Jaffe, can tell you the whole story about that.
Mr. JENNER. Now, upon your divorce from Wynne, or Didi, Sharples, did you remain in Dallas?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I stayed in Dallas, carried on my consulting work in the same manner, concentrating mostly from then on on the foreign end of this business.
Mr. JENNER. What do you mean foreign end?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I started taking more and more foreign jobs. In 1956 I took a job in Haiti for a private--for some private individuals connected with Sinclair Oil Company.
Mr. JENNER. When was that?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. In 1956--just before our divorce, I think. We were already separated. Then we must have been divorced the end of 1956.
Sorry--too many marriages, too many divorces. So I started taking more and more foreign jobs. And, also, in my relationship with Mr. Sharples, because my ex-wife's father--I did some foreign work for him, mainly in Mexico. He had some foreign exploitation in Mexico, some oil operations in Mexico. Anyway, I started getting a lot of foreign jobs--maybe jobs in Nigeria.
Mr. JENNER. I want to know what countries you were taken to in connection with those.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, all in all, I visited and I did foreign work, which means preparation for taking of concessions and suggestion of what areas should be taken for an oil and gas concessions---it was in Nigeria, in Togoland, in Ghana, in France I may have forgotten with some other countries where I did not have to go, but I did some work right there in Dallas examined the geological work and made suggestions.
Mr. JENNER. Now----
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. And eventually----
Mr. JENNER. You did travel to Mexico?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; many, many times.
Mr. JENNER. In connection with that work.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. In Cuba, too.
Mr. JENNER. Tell us about that.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, in Cuba---I traveled in Cuba before Castro, during the Batista days. The ex-president of Pantitec Oil Co. formed the Cuban-Venezuela Oil Co., a development--a land development to promote eventually a large oil drilling campaign in Cuba. He almost owned about half of the whole country under lease. This was during the Batista days. He invited me to come there and look the situation over, and make recommendations. And so I visited the fields there, and his office that--type of job that I had from time to time.
Mr. JENNER. I want to get the countries now. Cuba----
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Cuba, Mexico, Ghana----
Mr. JENNER. These are your travels now?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. That is where I actually went.
Mr. JENNER. That is what I want to know.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Ghana, Nigeria, Togoland, and France.
Mr. JENNER. Now, all of this was in connection with the work you were doing with respect to oil exploration and gas exploration and development for what group?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. For No. 1--for Charmex. Then Cuban Venezuelan Trust--that is Warren Smith Co. Then the Three States Oil and Gas Co. in Dallas.
Mr. JENNER. Now--were there some other companies?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; then Lehman Trading Corp. in New York. I may have had other jobs, but they escape me now. But they were all consulting jobs for clients of mine either from Texas or from New York. And then in 1957 those foreign jobs led to my being pretty well known in that field. I was contacted by Core Lab in Dallas in regard to a job in Yugoslavia.
Mr. JENNER. Tell us about that. That was for----
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. That was for ICA--a job for ICA and for the Yugoslav Government.
Mr. JENNER. Tell us what ICA is.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. International Cooperation Administration here in Washington--which wanted an oil and gas specialist to go to Yugoslavia and help them develop oil resources under the I don't know--some kind of government deal. Under this----
Mr. JENNER. Did a man named Charles Mitchell accompany you?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes---George Mitchell.
Mr. JENNER. And his wife?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I found him because he was a geophysicists. In other words, I did the geology and petroleum engineering, and he did pure geophysics. The ICA needed two men. I looked over the country for somebody who was capable and willing to go to Yugoslavia, and found George Mitchell in Dallas, and eventually both of us went there.
Mr. JENNER. You were single at this time?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And he was married?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. He was married.
Mr. JENNER. And his wife accompanied him?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. She did; yes.
Mr. JENNER. This was for the International Cooperation Administration?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Washington 25, D.C.
The Yugoslavian Government paid my living expenses there, and the ICA paid my salary.
Mr. JENNER. And you had a contract of some kind?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I think the contract was for 8 or 9 months.
Mr. JENNER. Now, you left on that venture, as I recall it, somewhere around February of 1957, wasn't it?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I left for Yugoslavia.
Mr. JENNER. Yes; you left for Yugoslavia when?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I think it was very early in 1957, because, 8 months, and I returned in October.
Mr. JENNER. 1957?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. 1957; yes. All the reports were made---quite a considerable number of reports were made in triplicates--some of them went to ICA, some went to the Yugoslavian Government. I think some went to the Bureau of Mines here.
Mr. JENNER. That was nonsecurity work, was it not?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't have the slightest idea. They checked me, they gave me some kind of clearance before I went there. Because I had to wait for quite some time before they gave me the okay. And I noticed that after I got back from Yugoslavia, they were still checking me---after I got back from Yugoslavia they were still checking on me. One character came to see some of my friends in Dallas and said, "Well, George De Mohrenschildt is about to go to Yugoslavia. Do you think he is all right?" He said, "But he is already back from Yugoslavia."
Mr. JENNER. In the meantime, you had met your present wife, is that correct?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I met her in Dallas. And while we were in Yugoslavia, we became engaged, and she came to visit me in Yugoslavia for awhile. But she was actually by profession a designer for a Dallas firm of I. Clark, and she went to Europe on a business trip for I. Clark, and while doing so she came and visited me in Yugoslavia for a couple of weeks.
Mr. JENNER. She was not yet divorced at that time?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't think she was divorced. She was getting a divorce.
Mr. JENNER. Where had you met her? Were you living at the Stoneleigh Hotel in Dallas?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And she was living there, also?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. She was living there, also. And she had this separate apartment. I was living on the Maple Terrace. She was living at the Stoneleigh Hotel.
Mr. JENNER. Was her daughter with her at that time?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I don't think she was. She came over later.
Mr. JENNER. I mean was her daughter living in Dallas?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. No; her daughter was living in California.
Mr. JENNER. What was the name of that town?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Where she lived in California?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Some canyon--Cayuga Canyon. She can tell you about that.
Mr. JENNER. Now----
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I met my present wife's ex-husband. His name was Robert LeGon. We developed a liking for each other. I remember he told me that he will give his wife a divorce if I promise that I would marry her. A very charming fellow.
Mr. JENNER. Did you and your present wife live with each other before you were married?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, we did, for a relatively short time, because we couldn't make up our minds whether we should get married or not. We both had experiences in the past. We decided that we would see if we wanted to be married or not. And we eventually did.
Mr. JENNER. Now, I think you can remember this.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. In the name of God we were married, because I remember we went on a trip to Mexico and decided that here we are married--in the name of God, we are married. Then, later on, we put it in the name of----
Mr. JENNER. You had a civil ceremony?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. After your wife had become divorced from her former husband? His name was Bogoiavlensky?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; but he changed his name to LeGon.
Mr. JENNER. Can you spell that?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. That name was a discovery for me, also. In the States they used the name of LeGon.
Mr. JENNER. When you and your wife married--by the way, her given name is Jeanne, is it not?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. When you and she married, did you continue to live at the Stoneleigh, or did you take up residence somewhere else?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. No, we kept on living at the Stoneleigh for awhile, and then we took a house in University Park, on Thackery. We took a house because both our daughters came to live with us. Actually, her daughter lived with us a little while before, and then my daughter came to live with us. She came from France to live with us.
Mr. JENNER. You mentioned her daughter. Now, you make reference to your daughter. That is your daughter Alexandria?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. And she had been living in France?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. She had been--she was brought up by her aunt in Arizona, because her mother----
Mr. JENNER. And her aunt's name is what?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Nancy Clark--and eventually she became Nancy Tilton III. Anyway----
Mr. JENNER. She lives where?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. She lives in Valle Verde Ranch, near Tucson, Ariz. And that is where my daughter was brought up. She was brought up and spent most of her childhood in that place, with her aunt and her husband, Mr. Clark.
Mr. JENNER. Her aunt's husband?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. This is the daughter by your marriage to Miss Pierson?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. Her mother, more or less, left her with--it was with what we call her aunt, because it is a European way--that was her first cousin, so, therefore, we call it an aunt--my daughter's aunt. I guess in English you would call it a cousin. We call it an aunt--whether it is cousin, second cousin or third cousin, it is still an aunt. Anyway, she calls her "Aunt" also. And she spent practically all her childhood there.
Mr. JENNER. Did you visit there?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; very frequently I went to visit her there, as often as I could. And Mrs. Clark and her husband wanted to adopt her. So we had a litigation there. I objected to her adoption.
Mr. JENNER. Did your former wife consent?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Which one?
Mr. JENNER. To the adoption?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, for awhile she was willing to accept that adoption, because she was not interested in her any more. She lived away from her, and married somebody else. She was not interested in the daughter.
I objected to that adoption, and very fortunately, because eventually both my ex-wife and myself had to ask back for the custody of Alexandria because her aunt became an alcoholic and became an impossible person to live with. And Alexandria asked me and her mother to take her away from her. We had a lawsuit---not a lawsuit, but whatever you call it--a custody case.
Mr. JENNER. Where was this, in Tucson?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. No, that was in Palm Beach--because Nancy took Alexandria with her to Palm Beach, and tried to keep her away from us. And we caught her there in Palm Beach and eventually the judge decided that she should be with us.
Mr. JENNER. When was this?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. That was in 1956.
Mr. JENNER. Now, you say "with us." Who do you mean?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I mean either with me or with the mother--with the mother who became Mrs.--what a complication--Mrs. Brandel--my ex-wife, the the mother of my daughter Alexandria, became Mrs. Brandel. Her husband is a Dutchman who lives in France and in Italy, and is a television producer.
Mr. JENNER. So your ex-wife, Dorothy Pierson----
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. And myself--asked the judge to decide with whom our daughter should stay. And she asked to stay with me. But I was not married yet. This was in the time between the marriages. I was not married. I could not offer her a home although I wanted her to be with me.
And then the judge said, "Well, you go with your mother to France."
And that is what she did. She went to France, stayed with her mother, I contributed to the support. She stayed there for, I think, a year and a half, and decided to come to stay with me in Dallas later on.
That is why we had the house on Thackery. She lived with us.
Mr. JENNER. She did come to live with you?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. After you were married?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. She lived with us in Dallas for quite some time.
And, finally, she eloped from school----
Mr. JENNER. From what school?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Highland Park School.
Mr. JENNER. In Dallas?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, and married a boy from Dallas by the name of Gary Taylor. She is divorced from him now.
Mr. JENNER. That was last September, was it not?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, last September.
Mr. JENNER. And----
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. They have a little boy by the name of Curtis Lee Taylor.
Mr. JENNER. And who has custody of that child?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. The boy has the custody.
Mr. JENNER. Gary Taylor?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Maybe I am wrong on that. Maybe they have a divided custody. But the child right now, according to my information, is with Gary Taylor and with Gary's mother, Mrs. Taylor.
Mr. JENNER. Gary has remarried, did you know that?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. I keep in touch with Mrs. Taylor, find out what is happening to the child.
Mr. JENNER. You say you keep in touch with Mrs. Taylor. Which Mrs. Taylor?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Mrs. Taylor, Gary's mother, who, more or less, takes care of the little boy right now.
Mr. JENNER. Following that divorce, your daughter--what did she do?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. She went to school, to Tucson, to study----
Mr. JENNER. What school is that?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Some secretarial school. And from then on, the situation becomes vague to me, because I was already gone. I get occasional reports telling that she left school, that she is somewhere in New York right now.
Mr. JENNER. Has she remarried?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Not as far as I know. I am trying to get in touch with her right now.
The last address is in some small town in New York, working in a hospital. She always wanted to be a nurse. Supposedly she has a job as some sort of a practical nurse in a hospital right now.
Mr. JENNER. How old is she now?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. She will be 19 now.
Mr. JENNER. Did your daughter come to know either Lee or Marina Oswald?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. All right. I will get to that, then.
While we are on these children, let's cover, if we might, your present wife's daughter.
What is her name?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Her original name was Jeanne LeGon, the same as my wife's.
Mr. JENNER. There is something indicating that her name was Elinor.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. Jeanne Elinor LeGon--middle name Elinor. My wife being an ex-dancer, she was a ballerina, had a tremendous admiration for Eleanor Powell, and named her daughter's middle name after Eleanor Powell. She was also an admirer of Eleanor Roosevelt, but that is beside the point.
Mr. JENNER. Now----
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. She changed her name----
Mr. JENNER. Your daughter did?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Her daughter changed her name from Jeanne to Christiana, not to be confused with her mother. And the name is hard to pronounce. She changed it legally, herself, to Christiana LeGon.
Later on, I understand she changed it to Christiana Bogoiavlensky--whatever I hear about it.
Mr. JENNER. Is your daughter married--is Christiana married?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. To whom is she married?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. She married Ragnar Kearton.
Mr. JENNER. And who is Ragnar Kearton?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Ragnar Kearton is a young man from California, from San Diego, Calif., whose mother I know, and whose father I don't know, but I understand he is vice president of Lockheed Aircraft Corp. And Ragnar is a well educated fellow, went to London School of Economics, but never graduated. He is a freelance writer, painter. To make a living I understand he works for Lockheed for awhile, and also he buys yachts, repairs them, fixes them up, and sells them.
Lately they moved to Alaska, and have been living there.
Mr. JENNER. What is----
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Working for the Forestry Department.
Mr. JENNER. In Alaska?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Is Christiana also known as Christiana Valentina?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. That I don't know. Never heard that name.
Mr. JENNER. After she married Kearton----
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. They changed their name to--according to them--to make it known the fact that her father's name was Bogoiavlensky, and they do not want to deny the Russian heritage. So that she is very fond of her father, and she wanted his name to be incorporated in their name, and that was by mutual agreement.
Mr. JENNER. Is it your understanding that your wife's former husband, Robert LeGon, married your present wife, and after they were married, they--his name was then Robert Bogoiavlensky?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. It is my understanding.
Mr. JENNER. And after they were married they changed their name to Le Gon?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I understand that when they came from China, they decided that the name was too difficult to pronounce, and they changed their name to Le Gon.
I have always known her as Jeanne LeGon, my wife. She is still carrying that name professionally. She is well known--she is a well known designer, she has a name practically as a trademark.
Mr. JENNER. She met Mr. Bogoiavlensky in China?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. This is all hearsay, of course, because I was not particularly---
Mr. JENNER. She will tell us first-hand tomorrow.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I understand of her family--she also has Russian background. Her father was a director of the Far Eastern Railroad in China, and she was born in China and lived there.
Mr. JENNER. Harbin?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, in Manchuria. Lived there until 1938. She came to the United States the same year I did.
Mr. JENNER. That is a pure coincidence?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. We lived right next to each other in New York, and didn't know each other--right next door.
Mr. JENNER. I understand you are very happily married.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. At last.
Mr. JENNER. Now, your wife's daughter, Christiana, she is where, at the present time?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Right now she is in Copenhagen, Denmark, with her husband.
Mr. JENNER. Now----
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. They came to visit us in Haiti.
Mr. JENNER. I was about to ask you that. When did that take place?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. They came to stay with us in December.
Mr. JENNER. Of 1963?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And January 1964?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And where does your daughter live when her husband is in Alaska?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. She was in Alaska with him. They lived both in Anchorage and in Valdez. That is where the earthquake took place in both places.
Mr. JENNER. But they are presently vacationing or traveling in Europe?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Do they have any children?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. They have no children.
Mr. JENNER. What are Mr. Kearton's interests?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Interests in life? Or professional interests?
Mr. JENNER. Well, give me the professional ones first.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Professional--he is--my wife will tell you more about him, although I know him pretty well, also, and I like him. He is of ultra conservative tendencies politically.
Mr. JENNER. Please explain that.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. In other words, he is for Senator Goldwater, 100 percent. His father is a friend of Goldwater's. And----
Mr. JENNER. Well, is he an aggressive----
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Very aggressive fellow.
Mr. JENNER. Is he aggressive politically?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Likes to discuss it, but I don't know whether he has any actual political--I mean whether he actually works to have Goldwater elected. But he likes him and freely expresses his admiration for him.
I don't think he is too much of a boy to go around and try to collect votes for Goldwater. He is too much concentrated on himself.
Mr. JENNER. Does it refresh your recollection that you and your wife, Wynne Sharples, were married on the 7th of April 1951?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. That is probably it, yes.
Mr. JENNER. And you were divorced almost exactly 5 years later, in April 1956?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, that is correct--5 years. I have the date clearly in my mind.
Mr. JENNER. By the way, let me ask you this at the moment: Are you a drinker?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Occasionally, but not too much.
Mr. JENNER. This will be all right to state to you on the record. Of all the people interviewed, everybody said that you were, if anything, a purely social drinker, they had never seen you intoxicated or close to it.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. It is not true, because I have been drunk many times--not every day, but many, many times. Not under the table, but I have drunk more than I should.
Mr. JENNER. You said your son, Sergei, had died in 1960.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, in August 1960.
Mr. JENNER. You are sure of that--rather than 1961?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. 1960--I am pretty sure.
Mr. JENNER. Well, what I have might be a misprint.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. My wife will tell you. I am not very good at dates. But I think it is 1960.
Mr. JENNER. You are very good on names, though.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, I remember names. Dates I am very poor at. That death, you know, put me in such a terrible condition of despair, that I decided, and I asked my wife to go with me on a trip throughout all of Mexico and Central America, to get away from everything, and to do some hard physical exercise. At the same time I thought I would review the geology of Mexico and Guatemala. And it was an old dream of mine to make a trip like that, but not in such rough conditions as we did it.
Mr. JENNER. I am going to get into that.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. If you are interested, go ahead.
Mr. JENNER. I am just trying to recall where we were when I interrupted myself.
At this point, tell me your political philosophies.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. My political philosophy is live and let live. I voted Republican, but--I am just not interested in politics.
Mr. JENNER. I am not thinking of politics in that sense, Mr. De Mohrenschildt, I am thinking in politics with a capital P.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, I think I am a 100 percent democrat, because I believe in freedom.
Mr. JENNER. Are you talking about individual freedom now?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Individual freedom. And I believe in freedom of expressing myself when I feel like it. I believe in freedom of criticizing something which I think is not democratic.
Mr. JENNER. What is your attitude towards communism?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Towards communism, I wouldn't like to live in a Communist regime, I am not a Communist, never have been one. But if somebody likes it, let them have it. And I get along very well with fellow workers who are Communists. For instance, in Yugoslavia, I got along very well with them. Of course, we didn't discuss politics very much out there. On the contrary, you have to stay away from that subject. But I consider the other person's point of view.
If somebody is a Communist, let them be a Communist. That is his business.
Mr. JENNER. Have you----
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I do not try to propagandize him, and I see some good characteristics in communism.
Mr. JENNER. There are some indications that you have expressed that view from time to time during your lifetime while you are in this country, that there are some good qualities in communism.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Now, there we mean--or what do you mean? What is your concept of communism?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I am looking at communism more or less more from the economic point of view. I think it is a system that can work and works, and possibly for a very poor man, and a very undeveloped nation it may be a solution.
Mr. JENNER. A temporary one?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. A temporary one, yes---which eventually, and I believe in evolution, and I have seen through my life that communism in certain places has developed into a livable type of an economy, a way of life.
Now, I repeat, again, that I would not like to live there. Otherwise, I would be there. Because I am too independent in my thinking, and I like business to be free. But----
Mr. JENNER. You like individual freedom and free enterprise?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. Which you find in the United States?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. And while you can see some benefits in communism as to persons of limited means, and poor countries, for initial development, you think that for a higher level of economic or cultural development communism is not good?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. Is that about it?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Exactly.
Mr. JENNER. I don't want to put words in your mouth.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Exactly.
Now, I am very much influenced by a book called "Poor Countries and Rich Countries," by the editor of the Economist in London, which expresses my ideas on economics of the world as it is today.
It is a book which says that--which is available any place here--which says that the world today is divided into poor countries and rich countries, and that the question of communism and socialism is for ignoramuses. That freedom can exist in both types of economies---could exist eventually.
But the main problem of countries today is the richness and the poorness. Now, the rich countries are all of Western Europe, the United States, Canada, all of the satellite countries of Soviet Russia, Soviet Russia, Australia, and so on. Those are the countries which are producing more than they can eat--you see what I mean? And they develop the tools to produce industrial goods.
While the other countries, the rest of the world, is falling down in the morass of poverty, and becomes poorer and poorer as time goes on. You see what I mean?
Right now, I am living in one of those countries temporarily, Haiti, which is in terrible economic condition because people eat more than they can produce. Now, what can save those countries?
Either a tremendous injection of money from the capitalist countries, or a Communist regime, or a Socialist regime. What else can they do? So that is something to think about and worthwhile reading.
Mr. JENNER. But, on the other hand, as far as your political philosophy is concerned, the thing that stands major with you is individual freedom?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. Naturally, you can see from all my life that I believe in individual freedom, and I could not live without it.
Mr. JENNER. Sometimes to excess.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. To excess; yes. The big discussions I had in Yugoslavia was always about the freedoms. And I remember that I was attacked one day by a group of Communists in Yugoslavia about Governor Faubus, in Arkansas--saying "What happens there? Is that an example of democracy in Arkansas?" And I told them, yes, it is an example of democracy. I told them that you can imagine in your own country that the Governor would object to the order from the President, and the President had to send troops to make the Governor obey. And that made an impression on them. A few examples like that.
Mr. JENNER. When you were in Yugoslavia, then, you did have debates with the Communists?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Occasionally--after a few drinks, you can talk to them. But they were engineers and geologists--they were not people active politically--they were not big shots.
With the big shots you cannot discuss it. But with smaller people, you can discuss.
Mr. JENNER. Are you interested in debate?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Very much so; yes.
Mr. JENNER. Are you inclined in order to facilitate debate to take any side of an argument as against somebody who seeks to support----
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. That is an unfortunate characteristic I have; yes.
Mr. JENNER. And that leads you at times to not necessarily speak in favor of, but to take the opposite view of somebody with respect to communism?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; sometimes it annoys me to have somebody who does not know anything about conditions anywhere else in the world attack while he is himself actually a Communist. You see what I mean? A Communist to me, in a bad sense, is somebody who does not believe in free discussion. So it annoys me that somebody Bircher will tell me, "George, we are for freedom here." I said, "Just the opposite, you are not for freedom."
Mr. JENNER. That is, you have taken the position that the Bircherites are not for freedom?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't like that movement personally. I dislike it very much. I have run into trouble lately in Texas before I left with some of my clients who were very much inclined in that direction.
For instance, they object to the United Nations. They put words in my mouth. I remember one day they said, "George, would you believe in abolition of the Army in the United States and creating an international force?"
I said, "No."
He said, "Well, that is what the United Nations stands for."
Mr. JENNER. Well----
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I get sometimes into heated discussions and sometimes I say things which maybe you don't think. But I may have insulted some other people's feeling, because I don't have a hatred against anybody. I don't hate communism--hell, let them live.
Mr. JENNER. You don't hate it for somebody else, but you don't want it yourself?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't want it myself; no.
Mr. JENNER. Your whole stay in Yugoslavia, however, was in connection with the International Cooperation Administration?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I am glad that you reminded me of that. I developed an idea, being in Yugoslavia, of forming a joint venture to use Yugoslav workers and American equipment.
Mr. JENNER. What workers?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yugoslav workers, who are very good and very inexpensive, to do some drilling in Arabic countries, and using American equipment. One of my clients is John Mecom in Houston, who, among other things, controls Cogwell Oil Well Equipment Co. in Wichita, Kans. And he has been having a hard time selling his equipment lately. So one day we were discussing in Houston what could we do to promote the use of his equipment. And we came to a conclusion that it might be a good idea to form a joint venture,. American-Yugoslav joint venture, using cheap Yugoslav labor, and very good labor, to drill in Arabic countries, because there is a great future of doing this, you see.
And John Mecom sent me to Yugoslavia in 1958 to look at the possibility of forming such a venture.
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. Was this the same year you were in Yugoslavia for the International----
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. No; the next year. This was in 1958.
Mr. JENNER. Were you then married?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. You had married your present wife?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I think so. I hope I am right on my dates. Yes--I think we were married then. Anyway, I went by myself to Yugoslavia.
Mr. JENNER. I think you married your wife, Jeanne in 1959, did you not, in the summer?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. You are probably right. Maybe I was not married at that time. Now, don't take those dates 100-percent sure. I can correct them later on when I look at the papers. My mind was so busy with Oswald that I don't keep my mind on the dates of marriage.
Mr. JENNER. I haven't reached Oswald yet.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I know. It will be a long discussion. I think I expressed my point of view pretty well.
Mr. JENNER. I do want you to get into this 1958 Yugoslav venture.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Tell us more about it.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. All right.
John Mecom said, "George, you go to Yugoslavia and fix a contract for me to use the American equipment in conjunction with Yugoslav labor, and possibly use some Yugoslav engineers, to drill in Arabic countries especially in Egypt." This is a little bit beside the point. But Marshal Tito is very close to Nasser, and it is very easy to send Yugoslav workers to Arabic countries today, and they actually do it all the time. They send the workers there, they do some jobs there. And they use German equipment, and sometimes Italian equipment. So why not use American equipment?
I heard about the very big deal in Egypt that could be gotten with that type of combination. However, before going to Yugoslavia I went to see the ex-head of ICA here in Washington. He was Ambassador in Yugoslavia when I was there. Riddleburger. And I told him about this project. And I asked him, "Do you think it will be workable? Will it be acceptable in Washington?"
And he said, "I think that sounds like a good idea."
It is nothing terrible to form a joint American-Yugoslavian venture--form a corporation.
I went to Yugoslavia and did get a contract of that type, a contract in the form of an agreement to be signed later on, just a project.
I came back to Texas, discussed it with Mr. Mecom, and he said, "George, I have changed my mind. I don't think I would like to do business with those damned Communists."
So the project fell through. And eventually quite a few corporations of that type were formed, between the French and the Yugoslavs, Germany and Yugoslavs, and Italians and Yugoslavs.
Mr. JENNER. You were in Ghana in 1957, was it?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I think later than that. I think 1960, probably, or 1959.
Mr. JENNER. What led you to go to Ghana?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I have clients in New York by the name of Lehman. The first name is Rafael Lehman, who owns the Lehman Trading Corp. I have done some work for him in Texas. A wealthy man of American and Swedish origin, who owns, among other things, stamp concessions all over Africa. They have rights to issue stamps for the Government. And this is one of those ventures that are very profitable, because they practically give the stamps gratis to the Government, and sell the stamps to the philatelic agents. And he has, I think, about 11 African countries under contract to produce stamps for them. And one of them is Ghana.
And while there--he travels around Africa all the time--he found out that there were some oil seeps in the northern part of Ghana, indications of oil. And he asked me to go there and investigate. And eventually we took a concession in the northern part of Ghana. We still are supposed to have it, this concession.
Mr. JENNER. Was it published when you went to Ghana that you were a philatelist?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. When we arrived in Ghana?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Sure.
Mr. JENNER. Explain that.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. That was a trick, because I was representing the philatelic agency, Lehman, but we did not want to let it be known to Shell Oil Co. that I was a consulting geologist.
Mr. JENNER. Don't you think Shell Oil Co. would know that George De Mohrenschildt was an oil geologist?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, we didn't want it to be known, anyway, because I even didn't go through--I didn't spend any time in Accra. I went right away to the northern provinces. How did you know that I went as a philatelist? You have to say that sometimes in the oil business you use certain tricks. But that was intentional on the part of Mr. Lehman, because Shell Oil Co. is supposed to have the real entry to all those countries, as far as concessions go.
Mr. JENNER. Did this venture of yours in behalf of Lehman Trading Corp. have anything--was that political in any nature, and I say political with a capital P.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. No; of course they have to be friendly with Nkrumah, because they produce stamps for him. But that is the only affiliation they have with him.
Mr. JENNER. So this venture in Ghana had no political aspects whatsoever?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. No.
Mr. JENNER. It was entirely and exclusively business, as you have explained?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. A hundred percent business.
Mr. JENNER. Except that you were working for the International Cooperation Administration when you were in Yugoslavia first, that had no political, capital P, implications whatsoever?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. No; it was purely business.
Mr. JENNER. And your second venture in Yugoslavia for the Cardwell Tool Corp., that was strictly business?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. No politics involved?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. No.
Mr. JENNER. Have you ever been in any respect whatsoever an agent
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Never have.
Mr. JENNER. Representing----
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Never, never.
Mr. JENNER. Any government?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. You can repeat it three times.
Mr. JENNER. Any government?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. No I could take what you call the fifth amendment, but, frankly, I don't need to.
Mr. JENNER. I should say to you, Mr. De Mohrenschildt, that any time you think that your privacy is being unduly penetrated, or that you feel that your constitutional rights might be invaded, or you feel uncomfortable, you are free to express yourself.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. You are more than welcome. I have never been an agent of any government, never been in the pay of any government, except the American Government, the ICA. And except being in the, Polish Army--$5 a month.
Well, maybe I made a mistake. Maybe I am working for the Haitian Government now. It is a contract. But it has no political affiliations.
Mr. JENNER. Subject to that.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Again, no political angle to it.
Mr. JENNER. What I am driving at--whether you work for a foreign government or not, whether you ever have in your lifetime have you at any time had any position, which I will call political, in the capital P sense, in which you sought to advance the interests of a movement or a government or even a group against a government?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Never have. Never was even a Mason. Never part of any political group.
Mr. JENNER. And any views you have expressed during your rather colorful life have been your personal views?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Personal views; yes.
Mr. JENNER. Not induced or fed or nurtured by any political interests, with a capital P, on behalf of any group?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. Sometimes I criticize things, like in Texas--I criticize the lack of freedoms that the Mexicans have, the discrimination, and things like that. But nobody pays me for that. I say what I think.
Mr. JENNER. Whether they pay you or not----
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I have never been a member of any group of any kind. My life was too busy, as you can see, in order to be involved in anything like that.
Mr. JENNER. Now, we covered your two Yugoslav ventures, your Ghanian venture the time that you had the company when you were a young man in Europe, traveled around Europe.
We covered all your employments in the United States, from the time you came here in May of 1938.
I think we have reached the point of your great venture which you started to tell us about, and I had you hold off--your trip down into Mexico and the Central American countries--tell us about that in your own words, how it came about, and what you did.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, I started explaining that already, that it is not a new idea for me. I said before that 20 years before, Roderick MacArthur and myself set out on a limited trip of this type, when we were both young men in Mexico.
And I have always been interested in Mexico as a very rich country mining wise, and I thought that it would be very interesting and useful for me to take a trip along the old trails of the mining of the Spaniards as they went through Mexico during the days of the Conquistadors.
You see, the Spaniards went to Mexico for the purpose of finding mines, and the routes they made in Mexico and through Central America are all directed toward certainly logical prospects, certain mines. And I started collecting through the years---I started collecting information on routes of the Spaniards in Mexico.
But I never thought I would really be able to do it, until came the time in 1960 when my boy died, and I was in very--practically out of my mind, because this was my only son. And I said to hell with all that--I had some money saved up, and I said I am going to stay away from my work and from the civilized life for 1 year, and I am going to follow the trails of the Spanish Conquistadors, all throughout Central America, and possibly all the way to South America.
And to do it the hardest possible way, because I believe in physical therapy for your mental problems.
And my wife, fortunately, also, loves the outdoors, and agreed with me that that is something we should do.
We gave up our apartment, I gave up my office, and we set out from the ranch on the border of Mexico and the United States.
Mr. JENNER. What ranch?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. This was--that is the ranch which belongs to a friend of ours. It is called the--it is Piedras Negras. It is on the Mexican side of the U.S. border. On the American side you have a little town called Eagle Pass. On the Mexican side you have Piedras Negras.
There we have some very close friends who own a big ranch. Their name is Tito and Conchita Harper. They have--they are half Mexican, half Americans. They live on the ranch nearby, and in Piedras Negras.
By the way, when I was visiting them, at the time I was visiting them, a few months before, we heard about the death of my boy, right in their house. We were sitting in their house when there was the long distance call from Canada that my boy had died. They are very, very close friends. They also advised me that it would be a good thing for me to take a trip like that, knowing my interest in Mexico and my interest in the outdoor life.
And that is what we did. We started off at the first 200 kilometers--Tito took us in a plane to cross the first range, a very difficult range, and the rest of the trip was made on foot, all the way to the Panama Canal.
Mr. JENNER. All the way to where?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. The Panama Canal.
Mr. JENNER. Tell me what countries you passed through.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. We passed through the whole of Mexico, in the longest trajectory you can have. Then the whole of Guatemala, the whole of San Salvador--El Salvador, rather, Honduras, Nicaragua, Costa Rica, and Panama.
And on the way there we stopped occasionally in towns, received our mail, through the American Embassy and consulates, visited some of the friends we have out there. In other words, we led a life close to nature for a whole year.
Mr. JENNER. Were you in Mexico City during this trip?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. No; because our route kept us away from Mexico City.
Mr. JENNER. At any time during that trip was Mikoyan in Mexico?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Oh, yes. That I have to tell this incident; that is interesting. This is completely a different incident.
I went to Mexico City, I guess, with--a year before that, on behalf of----
Mr. JENNER. Just a minute.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. This is another consulting job.
Mr. JENNER. When did you make your walking trip through Mexico?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. That was the end of 1960 and 1961--all of 1961.
Mr. JENNER. That took about 8 months?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Almost a year.
Mr. JENNER. So you would return in the late fall of 1961?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. 1961.
Mr. JENNER. November, I believe.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I remember that.
Mr. JENNER. Now, the occasion when Mikoyan was in Mexico was some other occasion?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. A different occasion; yes.
Mr. JENNER. As long as we have raised it at this point, we might as well complete it. Tell us about that.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. About this Mikoyan incident?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, I went to Mexico City on behalf of Texas Eastern Corp., which is a gas company in Houston, which has a contract with the Mexican Government for the purchase of gas. In other words, this corporation is buying gas from Mexico at the border.
Mr. JENNER. We talk about gas here--we are talking about natural gas?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Natural gas; yes. And this contract was in jeopardy-somebody else wanted to take it. And Texas Eastern, which is the corporation, a very large powerplant corporation which has the Big Inch from Texas to the east--through their vice president, John Jacobs, asked me to go to Mexico, since I am familiar with the country, and try to figure out in which way we can keep that contract. And while in Mexico, we had to entertain all the officials of the Mexican Government.
Mr. JENNER. You say "we."
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. My wife went with me.
Mr. JENNER. Your present wife?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. When did this take place?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. It was--I think it was in 1959. I cannot swear you about the dates. But about 1959. Or early in 1960 one or the other. I went to Mexico on other jobs before many times. But this particular job, since you are interested in the Mikoyan deal, which you call it, was this particular----
Mr. JENNER. Did I say deal or incident? I think I said incident.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Incident. Anyway, one of our friends in Mexico is the pilot of the president--the personal pilot of the President Mateos of Mexico. He also took the Russian group, the Russian engineers, with Mikoyan, on the tour of Mexico, at the same time I was there.
By the way, our proposition of the Texas Eastern was to provide some financing for Pemex in exchange for this contract--which is the Mexican Oil Co. And the Russians were offering the same thing to the Mexicans.
Mr. JENNER. So you were then really competing with the Russians?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Competing with the Russians. And through my contacts with this pilot, and with the Mexican officials, I knew exactly what the Russians were offering. We did not make any particularly big fight about it, but we knew what they were offering, and we knew what we could offer for our contract. It was one of the most interesting jobs I ever had.
And then one day, Mikoyan was with that group--the rest of them were technicians. One day Mikoyan was leaving. I remember we had dinner the night before with this pilot of the president. And he said, "George, why don't you come with me to meet Mikoyan tomorrow at the airport?"
I said, "By God, that sounds like an interesting idea. I would like to meet the character."
He had such a publicity of being an excellent businessman, I wanted to learn something from him.
So I said, "All right, I will go with you."
And my wife said, "George, you better not go, because your people at Texas Eastern will look at it--they may look at it in a very peculiar manner, if you appear with Mikoyan"--and the Texas Eastern people--they are very conservative Texas people--if I appear in public with Mikoyan, I will not get any jobs from them.
Mr. JENNER. Particularly having in mind your Russian background?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; particularly my Russian background. So she says, "I better go instead of you."
Mr. JENNER. Your wife?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; so the next morning she went with the Mexican major, the pilot of the president--he still is a pilot for the president today, and he is married to an American--he is not a Communist, believe me. And he and Jeanne went together to the airport.
It was full of security officers--the Russian security officers and the Mexican officers. And the Mexican pilot let her go through all that mess.
Here was the Russian plane, and Mikoyan was making a speech. After that, the pilot took Jeanne, for the hell of it, and said, "I will introduce you to Mikoyan."
And Jeanne went to him and said in perfect Russian, "How are you, Comrade Mikoyan? Nice to know you." And he almost collapsed, because it was such a surprise for him that somebody went through all that security officers without being detected--because she was right there in that group. So she said--he asked her where she is from, and she says, "I am from Texas."
"What do you mean from Texas?"
She said, "Yes, I am from Texas." She said, "Why don't you come and visit us in Texas and I will give you a Russian dinner."
And Mikoyan said, "Thank you very much, some day I will come and see you." So here was the Mikoyan incident.
Mr. JENNER. That is all of the circumstances of the so-called Mikoyan incident?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. It was pure happenstance and a bit of fun?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. And you, in fact, declined the same invitation?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I declined to go--purely for business reasons--because I didn't want my clients to think that I was buddy buddy with Mikoyan.
Mr. JENNER. Now, this trip of yours down through Mexico, and the Central American countries--wasn't that about the time of the Bay of Pigs invasion?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. It was indeed; yes. And we didn't know anything about it.
Mr. JENNER. You didn't?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. We didn't know anything about it.
Mr. JENNER. Your trip had nothing whatsoever to do with that?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Nothing to do with it except I remember we arrived in Guatemala City, and by God you know we walked on the street, we were trying to get some visas to get to the next country--you have to get visas and permits to carry guns. We had to carry a revolver with us to protect us, because we were going constantly through a jungle. We did not follow any roads. We were all the time following the trails.
Mr. JENNER. The old Conquistador trails?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; we carried two revolvers and a shotgun with us, And to be able to cross the border you had to get permit each time. That took us in Guatemala City quite some time. We were walking around the town trying to get a permit to Nicaragua, and to San Salvador, and to Honduras. And as we were walking on the street we saw a lot of white boys, dressed in civilian, but they looked like military men to me.
And I said to Jeanne, "By God, they look like American boys."
The consulate we received our mail through the American consulate.
Mr. JENNER. In Guatemala City?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Everywhere--Guatemala City, San Salvador--not Honduras, but in San Jose--everywhere we received our mail through the consulate or the Embassy. And I was asking the help of the consul there could they help me to get a permit to go to Honduras and carry my shotgun there.
He said, "I am too busy today, I cannot do anything for you."
And then we left Guatemala City--2 days later--we read the paper on the road about the Bay of Pigs invasion. That is all we knew about it.
Mr. JENNER. What did you do on your trip through Mexico and the Central American countries?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, we took--I took--we walked and found our way by the map, spoke to the people, collected samples.
Mr. JENNER. Samples of what?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Samples of rocks, of various rocks that seemed to have----
Mr. JENNER. How did you carry it?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. We sent them back--we carried--all the stuff we carried on the back of a mule. We had a big mule that could carry 150 pounds. This whole thing is recorded in a book I have written. It is a manuscript I have 600 pages--day for day description of our adventures. If you are interested, I will give it to you. The publishers don't seem to be interested. It is now in the hands of a publisher in France, and they may publish it.
Mr. JENNER. I had heard about that. I heard if it had a little more color it might be salable.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. It is a little bit too dry. It is day by day--that is what I could do. Someday when I have more time, I will make it a little bit more colorful. But as it is now, it is a diary of our trip, day by day.
Mr. JENNER. Now----
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. You see, that took quite some time each day to record what I saw, to record the geology, to record the observations I had of each place. Because we went to places that no white man has ever been in before, in many places. And certainly no geologist had ever visited before. We had some fascinating adventures. We were attacked many times. We were robbed. But we always came out all right.
Mr. JENNER. Did you make movies of that?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. We have a movie made of it, which I have here with me, because I would like to show it--I showed it to many friends in Dallas and in New York. It is an 8 millimeter movie which has about 1,200 feet--three big reels. This movie seemed to be quite interesting to people who like the outdoors. It gives you a complete sequence of our trip.
Mr. JENNER. Did you get pretty native in the course of that trip?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, we became completely native. We ate only what the natives ate. We drank what they drank. And we returned to civilization only once in awhile when we were in towns, in the big cities. Otherwise, we lived exactly like the natives. And that is how we were able to make a trip like that. We looked like Indians. They thought that we were Indians from somewhere. We were poorly dressed. All our cameras and equipment was covered by a piece of old rag, on top of that mule. In other words, we did not want to show to the people that we had money with us--we did carry money with us.
Mr. JENNER. Where did that trip end?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. The trip ended exactly at the Panama Canal. At the end of the trip, we went to say hello to Mr. Farland, the U.S. Ambassador there. And we also met Mr. Telles, our Ambassador in Costa Rica. They know all about our trip. And there were many articles written about our trip in the local papers.
Mr. JENNER. You mean local in Dallas?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Local in Dallas--and local papers in Central America, small local papers. It was a purely geological trip, plus a desire to be away from civilization for a while because of the death of my son. That, I think, is sufficient reason.
Mr. JENNER. It has no political implications whatsoever?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. No political implications. I am not interested at all in politics. Naturally, when I was going there I could not help seeing what was going on. The dictatorship in Honduras, the civil war in Panama, the guerilla fights. But itis all recorded in my book.
But I had nothing to do with it.
Mr. JENNER. You went from Panama to where?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. We just arrived from the border of Texas to Panama. We performed one big chunk of--we covered a big chunk of territory which is about 5,000 miles, on foot. And, believe me, not many people can do it, you know.
Mr. JENNER. When you completed that trip----
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. When we completed this trip, we were very tired, and we decided to go and take a rest in Haiti.
Mr. JENNER. Why did you select Haiti?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, as I said before, I had been there many times as a tourist. I have a very close friend of my father's who lived in Haiti. I speak French. And I like the country. I said we are going to visit this old man, a friend of my father's.
Mr. JENNER. What is his name?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Mr. Breitman; Michael Breitman. He used to be a very wealthy man in Russia--also involved in the oil industry in Russia, and in Czarist Russia--a friend of my father's. And I discovered that he lived in Haiti sometime in 1946 and 1947 when I went as a tourist there. And we became very close. He considered me almost like his son.
We went to visit him--I was worried that he might die, and he died very soon after our trip. And we stayed there for 2 months, relaxing, taking it easy. And I started preparing my contract with the Haitian Government at the same time.
Mr. JENNER. Now----
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Already then.
Mr. JENNER. Then you already had in mind the venture you are now--in which you are now engaged?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. I already started then, you see. I made the first step. I received a letter--I still have it--the letter from the Minister of Finance that they are interested in my project, which the project is to review all the mining resources of Haiti. They don't have anybody to do that. And we kept on working on it, working and working and working, corresponding back and forth, until finally there was the contract in March 1963. In other words, it took me 2 years to get that contract.
Mr. JENNER. Here, again, this is all business?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Purely business.
Mr. JENNER. No political or like considerations?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. No.
Mr. JENNER. You have never been a member of any subversive group?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. No; never have.
Mr. JENNER. Of what groups have you been a member? And of what groups are you a member?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I am not a member of any group. Maybe that is something against me, because I am not a member of any group. I am not a member--I am not interested. I am too busy.
Mr. JENNER. You are a member of the Petroleum Club in Dallas?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. If you call that a group; yes.
Mr. JENNER. It is a group.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; a member of the Dallas Petroleum Club.
Mr. JENNER. Tell me all the societies or groups, whether you call them political or otherwise, of which you have been a member.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. None political. You call the Dallas Petroleum Club political?
Mr. JENNER. No.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, I am a member of the Dallas Petroleum Club. I used to be a member of the Abilene Country Club. I used to be, because I don't live there any more.
I am a member of American Association of Petroleum Geologists.
I am a member of the American Association of Mining Engineers. I think my dues are due. Maybe they expelled me by now.
I am a member of the Dallas Society of Petroleum Geologists.
I am a member of the Abilene Society of Petroleum Geologists. I am a registered petroleum engineer in Colorado. That is about it.
Purely professional organizations.
Mr. JENNER. Have you ever participated in the affairs of--whether you have been a member of--irrespective of whether you have been a member of, I should say--any political action group, even such things as the American Civil Liberties Union?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. No; never even knew that it existed. I never even knew it existed.
You can see very clearly, I did not have time to do that. I am not interested in it. I told you before, I am not interested in politics, except when I want to improve something in our way of life.
Mr. JENNER. In our own way.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. In our own way of life, then I start criticizing. But I certainly am not interested in somebody's political organization, because I am sufficiently independent to do it by myself.
Mr. JENNER. And even when you become interested, as you suggest, in improvement or change, that has been largely an individual activity on your part?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. Occasionally I write letters to Congressmen--if you call that political action. I do. I write, I bitch very often. I write letters to the Congressmen and complain. I know the Congressman from Texas here, and I know--I write letters to people in Washington when I want to have something done about something.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, you spent 2 months in Haiti.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And you returned to the United States.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Returned to the United States.
Mr. JENNER. Where did you land?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. We landed in--we came by Lykes--Lykes Line ship directly from Haiti to Louisiana, I think Port Arthur, La.
Mr. JENNER. Lake Charles?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Lake Charles.
And the friends met us there and drove us back to Houston and then to Dallas.
Mr. JENNER. Who were your friends that met you there?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. The friends there were two employees of Kerr-McGee Oil Co., by the name of George Kitchel, vice president, and Jim Savage, engineer.
Mr. JENNER. You had known Jim Savage for some time?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And you had known Kitchel for some time?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. We are now into 1962, are we?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. In the early part of the year?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. And you returned to Dallas?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. We returned to Dallas. We took another apartment in the same place very close to the same neighborhood we used to live 6628 Dickens Avenue. I felt an urge to write a report on our trip. I sat down and worked like hell writing this report. My wife started working--because we were getting short of money. We spent all the money on our trip--including this Haiti stay. And at the same time I started pursuing my profession and making oil deals like we do, doing consulting work, in Dallas.
Now, I should repeat again--I am glad you reminded me of some of those dates, because you have them written down, and I don't. So I cannot vouch for some of the dates.
Mr. JENNER. Well, as a matter of fact, I have most of them in my head at the moment.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. You have a better memory for dates than I do.
Mr. JENNER. Now we have you in 1962. Your wife went back to work for----
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. She had broken her contract with a very large manufacturer. She had a very good contract--to come on this trip with me. She gave up a job of $15,000 or $20,000 a year, to go on this trip with me. And she had a very hard time reestablishing herself in her profession of designer.
So we went through a rather difficult time there for a year, and she started working in the millinery department of Sanger-Harris in Dallas. It is a large department store in Dallas.
Mr. JENNER. Now, this brings us to the summer of 1962.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Now, in due course you met Marina and Lee Harvey Oswald.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Now, before we get to that, what I would like to have you do for me is tell me about what I will describe in my words, and you use your own, the Russian emigre group or community or society in Dallas at or along about that time.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. There I knew them all, because both my wife and I like to speak Russian, and we like Russian cooking, mainly. This is our main interest in Russian society. They are all of the same type---in other words, they are all people who carry memories of Russia with them, and who became, I think, perfect American citizens.
Some of them are a little bit to the left, others are a little bit to the right, but all within the limits of true democracy.
One of them is, I think, leaning towards excessive rightist tendencies.
Mr. JENNER. What is his name?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. He is a geologist, for Sun Oil Co. His name is Ilya Mamantov.
I know them all very well. They are very decent people, all of them.
He, I think, is a little bit too much again on this Birch Society group, because he works for a large company.
Mr. JENNER. To refresh your recollection as to some of these people. Voshinin. What is his first name?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Igor.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Mamantov's mother-in-law, Gravitis--Dorothy Gravitis?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I just met her once or twice---hardly spoken to her.
Mr. JENNER. The Clarks?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I know them very well.
Mr. JENNER. Max Clark?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, Max and his wife, Gall.
Mr. JENNER. Gall is of Russian derivation?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Russian descent, born in France of the upper society in Russia--she was born Princess Sherbatov. They are families better than Cabots and Lodges here in the States.
Mr. JENNER. What about Mr. Clark?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Mr. Clark is a Texan of an excellent background, who is a lawyer, as you know.
Mr. JENNER. A lady by the name of Khrystinik?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. That I don't know. I don't know her. Maybe you don't pronounce correctly her name.
Mr. JENNER. That may well be.
Paul Raigorodsky?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. He is another Russian who is very successful in business, a Republican, a good friend of mine, I think. For years and years.
Mr. JENNER. Let me see some others that come to my mind.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I made a mistake with respect to one name. I said it was Khrystinik. I was in error. It is Lydia Dymitruk. You are acquainted with her?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Very slightly.
Mr. JENNER. What I am directing my attention to now, sir; is people forming part of the Russian, what I call, community in the Dallas, Fort Worth, Irving area.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. and Mrs. Ray. Mr. and Mrs. Frank Ray, and Mr. and Mrs. Thomas Ray.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. I think she is Russian.
Mr. JENNER. Which one?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Either one of them--the one who is in the advertising business.
Mr. JENNER. George Bouhe.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. He is a leader of the community, is he?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. John and Elena Hall?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. What is their history?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, she is----
Mr. JENNER. I mean derivation.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. He is American.
Mr. JENNER. He is a native American. And she is----
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. She is a Russian, I think of Persian origin, or brought up in Persia. I am not so sure where she was born. But she speaks very good Russian. She is I think Greek Orthodox, which means of Russian parentage.
Mr. JENNER. Tatiana Biggers?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. The name sounds familiar to me, but I don't think I know it.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. and Mrs. Teofil Meller?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Peter Gregory and his son, Paul?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I know only the father, Peter Gregory, not the son.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. and Mrs. Declan Ford?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, I know them.
Mr. JENNER. Does my calling your attention to the few people I have named refresh your recollection as to others who are part of the Russian community?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, there are others.
Mr. JENNER. I am thinking primarily of the Russian group who met the Oswalds.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't know who of them might have met the Oswalds.
Mr. JENNER. What about Sam Ballen?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. He is an American, but he knows a few Russians. And he met Oswald just once, I guess. I think he is a good friend of Voshinin--of mine, and probably knows the Fords. I don't think he knows the others. Maybe he does. I don't know.
Mr. JENNER. Having in mind this group of people----
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, then the priest must know them all--the Russian priest.
Mr. JENNER. What is his name?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. He is an American, but he is a Greek Orthodox priest there.
Mr. JENNER. What is his name?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Father Dimitri.
Mr. JENNER. Father Dimitri--he is from Houston, is he not?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. No, he is the one who is in charge of the Greek Orthodox Church in Dallas, and he is also a professor at SMU, professor of Spanish at SMU.
Mr. JENNER. In that connection, there are two----
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I know that he knows Marina.
Mr. JENNER. There are two Greek Orthodox Churches, are there not, or sects or groups, in Dallas?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. Tell me how that developed.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, it is just some sort of schism in the Greek Orthodox Church. I am not too interested in religion, so I could not tell you how it originated. But anyway, one church seems to be purely Russian, and the other one seems to have a lot of Americans in it. The one that Father Dimitri is the head of he is an American and quite a large membership of Americans--they have converted. And the services are in English, although the others--some services are in Russian also.
Sometimes he has visiting priests. But I don't know why they are segregated into two groups.
Mr. JENNER. Mr Raigorodsky is interested in the old guard group, let us call it?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; probably, that is right.
Mr. JENNER. And also Mr. Bouhe?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; but Raigorodsky supports also the other group.
Mr. JENNER. Yes; he does.
Now, are the acquaintances largely formed, when new people come into Dallas, through these church groups?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; most of the time I would say so.
Mr. JENNER. Now, at least during the time I don't know what your propensities are at the moment, but you were somewhat irreligious when you were in Dallas, were you not?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, I actually contributed to this church, to the formation of that first church, that Raigorodsky was interested in, the old guard church.
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. And I actually organized even a choir. But then I got less interested in it. I didn't like the priest, you know.
Mr. JENNER. You didn't like Father Dimitri?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. No; the previous one.
Mr. JENNER. What was his name?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, I forgot his name. He is in South Africa now. It was some time ago. It was 10 years ago maybe. He was sent to South Africa. Let them convert the Negroes there, in South Africa.
Mr. JENNER. It has been said or reported by--from a few sources, during the course of your lifetime that you were an atheist; is that correct?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I am more or less an agnostic. I would not call myself an atheist; an agnostic. I do not believe in organized religion. Sometimes if I see a group like that, like the Russian group there, I wanted to help them a little bit to be together. And it is amusing to meet those people. So I contributed a little money and a little bit of my time for the services---for instance, as I said, to sing in the church. But I do not go for going every Sunday to church, if that is the answer.
Mr. JENNER. Well----
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. And especially I do not believe in trying to convert people constantly they push to convert people. But I go occasionally---on some holidays I go to church, to be with them, and to see the group, because I like many of those people.
Mr. JENNER. That attitude on your part, of agnosticism, whatever you have explained it to be, I take it does not arise out of any interest or belief in communism?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. No.
Mr. JENNER. Communists are----
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Communism is a religion, you know.
Mr. JENNER. Well, that is what they say, in any event. They seek to stamp out religion as we understand it in Russia, do they not?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, I understand that the Greek Orthodox Church is prosperous in Soviet Russia, quite prosperous. Maybe that is the schism that they have in the church, the schism between the two--maybe one of those churches is closer to the Communist Greek Orthodox denomination.
Mr. JENNER. But this is speculation on your part?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; this is speculation on my part. I don't know for sure.
Mr. JENNER. Now, you are an ebullient person, you like to mix with others?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; not always, you know, because I can stand for a year to be in the Jungle.
Mr. JENNER. Yes; I appreciate that. But when you are in, let us say, Dallas or other towns, and in your own community, you are an ebullient person, you are gregarious, you like to be with people?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; exactly.
Mr. JENNER. It is suggested by some people you are also unorthodox in your social habits.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; probably. What do they say--what do they mean?
Mr. JENNER. Well, you are prone to be a little----
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Shock people.
Mr. JENNER. Shock people; yes. That is generally so?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And why do you do that?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, it is interesting to see people's reaction--if you shock them, it is amusing to get people out of their boredom. Sometimes life is very boring.
Mr. JENNER. And get you out of your boredom, too?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Maybe my boredom also.
Mr. JENNER. Well----
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. But generally people like to be asked provocative questions and to be given provocative answers. I think so, at least.
Mr. JENNER. You are a man--I will put it this way----
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I hope so.
Mr. JENNER. You like to have fun?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. There has been some suggestion that maybe you could be a little more serious-minded?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. It Certainly has been suggested.
Mr. JENNER. It has even been said you might grow up a little bit?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. But you are fun-loving?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; that is right. That I am. Well, I don't believe, you know, in leading a life as if you were half dead. Might as well enjoy it, your life, to the fullest extent.
Mr. JENNER. I am trying to paint a picture here, Mr. De Mohrenschildt, of the milieu or background in Dallas when you first met the Oswalds, what kind of a community it was.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I understand.
Mr. JENNER. How you moved around in it, and what part you played in it, and what part your wife played in it. I gather that the community of which you speak, the people of Russian derivation, were close, you saw a good deal of them?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; it is close because there are not many. It is not like New York--although in New York I know also thousands of Russians, and in Philadelphia, and so on, and so forth. But mainly in Dallas there are only maybe, as you know, 30 families, maybe 25 families, all in all. So they are a little bit closer together. And a very pleasant relationship--be-cause they are all good people and with a few exceptions I think we all like each other, and used to get along very well, until Oswald appeared on the horizon.
Mr. JENNER. All right. I want to get to that.
I want this to be as spontaneous on your part as possible, rather than coming by any suggestion from me. Would you try and put in your own words this Russian community as it was when Oswald and Marina came to the Dallas area, Fort Worth, in June of 1962---without involving them now. What was the milieu and the background of the situation?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, a purely social group, a little bit divided by classes. You see what I mean?
Mr. JENNER. No; I don't.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. There was a little differentiation in classes there.
Mr. JENNER. Go ahead and tell us about it.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. In other words, people with good education and a little bit more money rather were together, and it is not so much a question of money as a question of good education, and of background. And Bouhe comes from an excellent family. This Gall Clark, of course, comes from a No. 1 family of Russia. Paul Raigorodsky comes from an excellent family, excellent education. Those were the people with whom we were very close.
Mr. JENNER. Was there a man by the name of Zavoico?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. He is----
Mr. JENNER. What is his first name?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Basil.
Mr. JENNER. He lives in Connecticut now?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. He is a wealthy man?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Relatively wealthy man, well-to-do. He has had many, many, many years--many more than all of us, in the oil business.
Mr. JENNER. Never part of the community?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. We all knew him. Because there are so few people in this geological field. And he is an old acquaintance of mine.
Mr. JENNER. Now, there was a Professor Jitkoff in Houston?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. What is his first name?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't remember. I just met him once or twice. I know his wife better.
Mr. JENNER. IS his wife also a Russian emigre?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I think she is of Armenian, or Russian and Armenian, extraction.
Mr. JENNER. In what connection did you meet him?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Already a long time ago. Oh, yes; I met him through another Russian, through ballerina, a Russian ballerina, another one who lived there Natasha Krosofska, a famous ballerina.
Mr. JENNER. I am thinking of another name in Dallas, Mrs. Helen Leslie.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; that is her stepmother--the stepmother of the ballerina.
Mr. JENNER. She was part of the Russian group?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; also from a typical old guard family--really hundred percent. To show you the atmosphere who does not believe there are any new houses built in Russia today? She said in her opinion the Russia of today doesn't have any new houses, none whatsoever---only the old palaces from the czarist days.
Mr. JENNER. I interrupted you.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. The really backward type old guard people. I am glad that you made such a distinction there.
Mr. JENNER. Is this old guard group a group that would be inclined to believe that if an American went to Russia and came back with a Russian wife, that that necessarily would mean that he must have had some connections of some kind with the Communists in order to get a Russian wife out of Russia?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. That is an interesting question. They might believe anything, because they think that the Russians are such devils that they would go to any extent of diabolical combinations to do something like that.
Mr. JENNER. Now, among the Russian emigre group in Dallas, did you ever know of anybody that you even thought might be a Communist?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Not a single one.
Mr. JENNER. Or have any leanings toward communism?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. No; no leanings even. I am probably the most leftest of them all.
Mr. JENNER. And you do not----
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. And as you know, I am not a member of any party.
Mr. JENNER. And you do not regard yourself as a Communist?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. No. Not only do I not regard--I just am not. But I am probably the only one who has been in the Communist country, because of my job with ICA, and also, I forgot to tell you that I had visited Poland in 1958, after my job with ICA. I went to visit Poland, as a tourist, to see what happened to my ex-country. I Just went there for a period of 10 days, to Warsaw, and then went to Sweden from there, and then returned back to the, States.
Mr. JENNER. This was after----
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. After I finish my job in Yugoslavia.
Mr. JENNER. Give me--I am going to pose a hypothetical to you. Let us assume that a Russian couple would come to Dallas, let us say right now--no friends, not know anybody in Dallas. What would normally happen? As soon as you became acquainted with the fact, or the community--the Russian group became acquainted with the fact that there was a Russian couple?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. They would be exceedingly interested, naturally.
Mr. JENNER. Curious?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Exceedingly curious.
Mr. JENNER. Now, if you were there, would that include you?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And your wife?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. Well, aside from us--the most curious would be George Bouhe, because he actually met us first--the first in Dallas---he told us about Oswald, as far as I remember. Because he is curious by nature. He wants to know what is going on. He wants to convert them to the Greek Orthodox Church, and so on.
Mr. JENNER. Would there be any effort to help these people become acquainted throughout the community?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. If they--if that couple came from Soviet Russia, from the Soviet Union, you mean?
Mr. JENNER. Well, let's assume that.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, the old guard would not do anything. They would be curious, but--they might meet them and very soon afterwards they would get disgusted with them, because what they would say to them would not fit with their beliefs. And we know that Soviet Russia is a going concern. To them it is not, it does not exist. It just isn't there.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, when did you first meet either Marina--I will put it this way: When did you first hear----
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. The first time----
Mr. JENNER. Of either of these people--Marina Oswald or Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. As far as I remember, George Bouhe, who is a close friend of mine, and a very curious individual, told me that there is an interesting couple in Fort Worth, and that the Clarks know them already--Max. Clark and Gali--they know them already. Somebody read about them in the paper--I don't know exactly, I don't remember the exact wording any more that somebody read about them in the paper, maybe Mr. Gregory, and discovered them, made a discovery.
Mr. JENNER. Now----
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. But we heard from George Bouhe the first time.
Mr. JENNER. At this time were you aware that there had been an American who had gone to the Soviet Union and attempted to defect to the Soviet Union?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And that he had returned to the United States?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. That is what I heard from George Bouhe.
Mr. JENNER. That was the first you ever knew anything at all about----
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I never heard about them, never heard anything about them before.
Mr. JENNER. Now, is that likewise true of Mrs. De Mohrenschildt?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Same thing. I think we were both together when this conversation took place.
Mr. JENNER. When did it take place?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I could not tell you the date. I think in the summer of 1962.
Mr. JENNER. Now, give me your best recollection of what George Bouhe said to you about the Oswalds on that occasion.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. He said rather a complimentary account of them---I don't think he met them yet. I think he just heard about them.
Mr. JENNER. It is your recollection he had just heard about them, and heard she is very pretty, and comes from an excellent family---supposedly. And he is a fellow who got disappointed in Soviet Russia and returned to the United States, and that met with George Bouhe's approval--somebody who did that.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't think he even knew that he had been an ex-Marine, and all that. I don't think he knew anything about that.
Mr. JENNER. When George Bouhe spoke to you then--have you exhausted your recollections as to the conversation right at that point?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I am trying to think about it. I just remember that I got curious, what kind of a fellow he is, and what kind of a woman she is.
Mr. JENNER. Were you particularly interested when you heard she was pretty?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. No, no; not particularly. No; because but it is nice to know a good-looking girl rather than to know some monster.
Mr. JENNER. You have----
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I am always curious to find somebody better looking than horrible. We are talking about serious things.
Mr. JENNER. Well, it is part of the atmosphere, Mr. De Mohrenschildt. You have always had an interest in pretty women, have you not?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Sure, sure; naturally.
Mr. JENNER. And you have pursued and courted them?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I Still do, I hope. Until the day I die. But anyway, it was not really so. It was Just an interesting couple who were it pleased us to know that here is a pretty girl from Soviet Russia that had arrived, because we all picture Soviet Russian women like a commando--big, fat women, working in a brick factory.
Mr. JENNER. You were curious to find out more about them, were you not?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. What did you do?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Again, now, my recollections are a little bit vague on that.
I tried, both my wife and I, hundreds of times to recall how exactly we met the Oswalds. But they were out of our mind completely, because so many things happened in the meantime. So please do not take it for sure how I first met them.
Mr. JENNER. We want your best recollection.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. My best recollection--I even cannot recall who gave me their address in Fort Worth. I don't recall that. Either George Bouhe or the Clarks, because the Clarks knew them already, Max and Gali Clark, because they were from Fort Worth, you see.
And I think a few days later somebody told me that they live in dire poverty. Somewhere in the slums of Fort Worth.
I had to go on business to Fort Worth with my very close friend, Colonel Orlov.
Mr. JENNER. What is his first name?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Lawrence Orlov--he is an American, but he has a Russian name for some reason--maybe his great- grandfather came from Russia.
And to my best recollection, Lawrence and I were on some business in Fort Worth, and I told him let's go and meet those people, and the two of us drove to this slum area in Fort Worth and knocked at the door, and here was Marina and the baby. Oswald was not there.
Mr. JENNER. This was during the daytime?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Late in the afternoon, after business hours, 5 o'clock.
Mr. JENNER. You and Colonel Orlov?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Colonel Orlov.
Mr. JENNER. She answered the door.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. You identified yourself?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I said a few words in Russian, I said we are friends of George Bouhe. I think he was already helping them a little bit, giving them something for the baby or Something. I think he had already been in--he helps everybody. He has been helping her especially. And so the introduction was fine. And I found her not particularly pretty, but a lost soul, living in the slums, not knowing one single word of English, with this rather unhealthy looking baby, horrible surroundings.
Mr. JENNER. Now we are interested in a couple of things. You found that she knew substantially no English?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. No English at all at that time. I think she knew maybe I remember that I asked her, "How do you buy things ill the store," and she said, "I point with my finger and I can say 'yes' and 'no'." That is all.
Mr. JENNER. Did you go into the home---was it a house or apartment?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. It was a shack, near Sears Roebuck, as far as I remember--near that area. I don't know if you went down there. A little shack, which had only two rooms, sort of clapboard-type building. Very poorly furnished, decrepit, on a dusty road. The road even was not paved.
Mr. JENNER. What did you talk to her about?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Just asked her how she likes it here, and how she was getting along, does she get enough food, something like that--completely meaningless conversation.
And I think Lawrence was there, you know, but he did not understand what I was saying. He doesn't know Russian.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ask about her husband?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I said, "Well, I would like to meet your husband." She said he should be back from work soon. She asked me to sit down, offered me something to drink, I think--she had some sherry or something in the house. This is the best of my recollection.
And Lawrence sat down, and found her very nice. And then after a little while, Oswald, Lee appeared.
Mr. JENNER. You say Lee appeared?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, Lee appeared.
Mr. JENNER. Lee appeared. You had never seen him before?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Never seen him before.
Mr. JENNER. And he came in?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. He came in.
Mr. JENNER. What happened, and what was said?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, he loved to speak Russian.
Mr. JENNER. Did you introduce yourself? And explain why you were there?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, I said, "I'm a friend of George Bouhe, I want to see how you are getting along."
Mr. JENNER. Did you speak in Russian or English?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. In English at first, and then he switched to Russian.
Mr. JENNER. What was your impression of his command of Russian?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, he spoke fluent Russian, but with a foreign accent, and made mistakes, grammatical mistakes, but had remarkable fluency in Russian.
Mr. JENNER. It was remarkable?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Remarkable--for a fellow of his background and education, it is remarkable how fast he learned it. But he loved the language. He loved to speak it. He preferred to speak Russian than English any time. He always would switch from English to Russian.
Mr. JENNER. Did you discuss life in Russia, how he got there?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't think the first time. I don't think the first time I said anything at all, you know. Possibly he told me that he had been in Minsk, and that got me curious, because I had lived in Minsk as a child, and my father was the so-called nobility marshal of Minsk. He got me curious, you know.
But I do not recall for sure whether it was the first time I met him or the second time or the third time. I don't remember. I think it was a very short meeting the first time, because Lawrence Orlov was there, and he wanted to get back home, so we just said, "Well, we will see you," and possibly Marina had mentioned that her baby needed--that she needed some medical attention with her teeth, and that the baby had not been inoculated. Possibly that was that time. But I am not so sure.
Mr. JENNER. At least there was a time when that did arise?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, yes.
Mr. JENNER. Her need for dental care, some attention needed to be given to the child?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Your impression was the child looked rather on the sickly side?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; very much so. It was kind of a big head, bald big head, looked like Khrushchev, the child--looked like an undergrown Khrushchev. I always teased her about the fact that the baby looked like Khrushchev.
Mr. JENNER. I don't want to prod you, because I want you to tell the story in your own words.
Now, you had this visit, and you returned home?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I think the first visit was very short, and we drove back with Lawrence, and I remember on the way we discussed that couple, and both had a lot of sympathy for her especially. But he also struck me as a very sympathetic fellow.
Mr. JENNER. Yes. Give me your impression of him at that time your first impression.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. The first impression and the last impression remain more or less the same. I could never get mad at this fellow.
Mr. JENNER. Why?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Sometimes he was obnoxious. I don't know. I had a liking for him. I always had a liking for him. There was something charming about him, there was some--I don't know. I just liked the guy--that is all.
Mr. JENNER. When you reached home, you reported on this----
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. You know, he was very humble with me he was very humble. If somebody expressed an interest in him, he blossomed, absolutely blossomed. If you asked him some questions about him, he was just out of this world. That was more or less the reason that I think he liked me very much.
Mr. JENNER. Yes; he did. It is so reported, and Marina has so said.
Well, that first visit didn't give you any opportunity to observe the relations between Marina and Lee, I assume?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I already noticed then that the couple that they were not getting along, right away.
Mr. JENNER. What made you have that impression?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, there was a strained relationship there. You could feel that. And, you know how it is--you can see that the couple that they are not very happy. You could feel that. And he was not particularly nice with her. He didn't kiss her. It wasn't a loving husband who would come home and smile and kiss his wife, and so on and so forth. He was just indifferent with her. He was more interested in talking to me than to her. That type of attitude.
Mr. JENNER. But you did notice throughout all your acquaintance with him that he blossomed when you paid attention to him, let us say?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Exactly.
Mr. JENNER. You drew him into conversation or situations--especially when you asked something about him?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; exactly. I think that is his main characteristic. He wanted people to be interested in him, not in Marina. And she remained quite often in the background.
Later on, even in conversation she would remain in the background, and he would do the talking.
Mr. JENNER. Did he have an arrogant attitude?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. No; with me he has never been arrogant. Even when we came to the incident, you know, when we took the baby away from him, and Marina away from him later--you know that?
Mr. JENNER. I want to get that in sequence. But you did it yourself, did you?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. My wife and I; yes.
Mr. JENNER. Now, why do you not just go along and tell me as things develop. And how attitudes changed, and everything.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, then we started getting reports, you know, from George Bouhe and the Clarks about them. We didn't see them very often.
Mr. JENNER. Please, I don't want you to say you didn't see them very often. Maybe you didn't.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. I want to know how this developed.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Well----
Mr. JENNER. When next did you see them, after this initial event?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. That I don't remember. I don't remember. But I do know that we saw Marina very soon afterward, because either my wife went to get her or my daughter went to get her--I don't remember that any more---to take her to the hospital. Or maybe George Bouhe brought her to our house so that my wife, who was free at the time, could take her to the dental clinic. I think that was the next time that we saw Marina. Maybe a few days later.
Mr. JENNER. In any event, it was before Marina went to live with the Mellers?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And it was before Marina went to live with the Taylors?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
She never lived with the Taylors. I think she spent I night with them, and that is all. She lived, I think--I think both of them lived somewhere in neighborhood. I think she spent I night with my daughter, when she happened to be in Dallas for this medical care. And since they are about the age of my daughter--she is a little bit older, but about the same age I don't remember how it happened, but either I or my wife introduced Marina to my daughter, and also Lee. This is very vague in my mind, what happened there.
Mr. JENNER. Well, your recollection is that within a few days George Bouhe brought Marina to your home?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I think so.
Mr. JENNER. For the purpose of having your wife take Marina to get some dental care?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. And where was she taken?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. She was taken to the Baylor Dental Clinic.
Mr. JENNER. That is located where?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. It is right in the center of Dallas, near the Slaughter Hospital--what a name for a hospital. It is the name of the man who founded it.
Well, the dental clinic is right there next door. They give you dental care gratis, or almost for nothing.
George Bouhe was giving her money, by the way.
Mr. JENNER. He was giving her money?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I mean small amounts of money, you know, either for injections or something like that--because she didn't have anything.
Mr. JENNER. She was destitute, was she?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Completely destitute--because Lee was at the time losing his job. I don't recall when he told me that---maybe already at the first meeting. He told me that he was about to lose his job. He was working somewhere in Fort Worth as a manual laborer, some ironworker.
Mr. JENNER. Leslie Welding Co.?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I don't know the name of it. This company was going bankrupt, or that he was going to lose his job. At least that was his version. Maybe he was fired.
Mr. JENNER. That was his version. That wasn't the fact.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. It was a fact?
Mr. JENNER. It was not. Your wife also took the baby for some medical care?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Now, this I am not so sure. She told Marina where to go, and told her, "You have to give the baby such and such injections." And this I remember well--that she didn't do it. She didn't go to that children's clinic, because of pure negligence. She is that type of a girl--very negligent, poor mother, very poor mother. Loved the child, but a poor mother that doesn't pay much attention. And what amazed us, you know, that she, having been a pharmacist in Russia, did not know anything about the good care of the children, nothing.
Mr. JENNER. How did you find out she had been a pharmacist in Russia?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, that eventually came--the second time or the third time that we met her--she told us the story of her life.
Mr. JENNER. Do you have a recollection as to what she told you?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. Well, she said exactly her story of her life as she told me, that she comes from a family of ex-Czarist officers. That her father had been a Czarist officer of some kind---you see what I mean? I don't remember whether it was navy or army. I don't recall it any more. That her mother remarried, and that her stepfather did not treat her well. That they moved--I think they lived in Leningrad when she was a child. That eventually they moved to Minsk. I don't remember what her father's profession was.
One thing I remember--that one of her uncles was a big shot Government official, something like that---colonel or something like that. That I remember she told me.
And then she went to this school of pharmacists, I think in Minsk, and graduated as a pharmacist. And one day she was walking by this river, which I also remember, in Minsk---the River Svisloch, which crosses the whole town, and where there are some new apartment buildings built, and in one of those apartment buildings there were very nice apartments, and that is where the foreigners lived.
She said it was her dream some day to live in an apartment like that. And that is where Lee Oswald lived. And eventually when they met---I remember they met at some dance I think he was ill, something like that, after that dance, and she came to take care of him. That is something I have a vague recollection of---that she took care of him, and from then on they fell in love and eventually got married. But she said it was the apartment house that was one of the greatest things she desired to live in, and she found out later on that Lee Oswald lived in that apartment house, and she finally achieved her dream.
It sounds ridiculous, but that is how in Soviet Russia they dream of apartments rather than of people.
She told us a tremendous amount of things which will come to me as things go on.
Mr. JENNER. Go ahead.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Naturally I was talking to her and to him---I was trying to find out what is life of young people in Soviet Russia, what are the prices on food, what can you get for your money, what salary you get, what amusements you get.
Mr. JENNER. Tell us what they said.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. The salaries--she was getting an equivalent of $60 a month. He was getting something like $80 a month. That almost all of it had to be spent on food. The lodging was very cheap, almost nothing, because it was provided by the Government. That the food was rather plentiful, you could get it--but it was rather monotonous. Sometimes you could not get meat. They used to have discussions between them all the time always they quarreled about--Lee Oswald and Marina always quarreled between themselves as to what actually were the prices, what actually were the conditions of life in Soviet Russia.
Mr. JENNER. Tell me about the differences here.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. The attitudes she had, and the attitude he had.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. He liked Russia more than she did. I think he liked the conditions in Russia more than she did.
Mr. JENNER. Why?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Because he was a foreigner there, and he had a privileged position. He had a nice apartment. He said that people were interested in him, you see. That very often---he worked in a TV factory--the workers would come to him and ask him questions about the United States and so on, and that pleased him very much, because he was that type of an individual who needed attention.
Marina was more inclined to criticize the living conditions there than he did--- as far as I remember. Yet she was not too critical, you see. It was a livable way of life.
Actually, they came to think that possibly their life was better there than in Fort Worth. In other words, both were disappointed in what happened to them after they came back to the United States. And I think that Lee more than Marina. Because as the time went on, Marina was getting more and more things from people people like the Clarks, like ourselves, like George Bouhe, started giving her gifts, dresses and so on and so forth. She had some hundred dresses.
Mr. JENNER. A large number of dresses?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. About a hundred dresses.
When we carried them out to live with the Mellers, my car was loaded with her dresses. It was all contributions from the various people, in Fort Worth and Dallas.
Mr. JENNER. In addition to dresses and clothing, what other things?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, mainly baby things. She had two cribs, I remember. She had a baby carriage.
I think George Bouhe gave it to her. Toys for the baby. Many things like that.
Mr. JENNER. Now, you say .you carried her out and took her to the Mellers?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. This was already possibly 2 weeks after we met them.
Mr. JENNER. Now, what was the occasion that you did that, and why did you do it?
That was a pretty forward thing to do, was it not?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. In the meantime, Lee lost his job and George Bouhe told him that he should move to Dallas, he will give him an introduction at the Texas Employment Agency--he knew somebody there. And eventually he got a job through that Texas Employment Agency. I don't remember the name of the person who was there some Texas lady whom George Bouhe knew.
And I told him that I would help him, too, to find a job, and even spoke to Sam Ballen about it, can he give him a job. And that is probably the only time that Sam Ballen met Oswald. I told him to go to Mr. Ballen's office---he has a reproduction business, a very large one in Texas.
Mr. JENNER. Reproduction?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Reproduction, electric log reproduction service. When they reproduce electrical logs from the oil wells. And also, they print catalogs and things like that in his office. It is quite a large business that he has--with branch offices all over Texas, and even in Denver, Colorado.
I said, "Why don't you see if you can give him a job?" And I remember that Sam saw Lee Oswald and found him very interesting.
I remember I saw him the next day and said, "How did you like Lee Oswald?" and he said, "Nice fellow, very nice fellow, very interesting fellow."
Mr. JENNER. But he did not have any work for him?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. He didn't have a job for him. And at the same time he received a job at some other outfit--I forgot the name of it--the traffic outfit, and they moved from Fort Worth to Dallas.
Mr. JENNER. You said you entered and took Marina out of the house, and the baby?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. That was a little bit later on--when he already moved to Dallas, he already had the job. But now I am trying to recall who moved him from Fort Worth to Dallas, and I think that was Gary Taylor, my ex-son-in-law, and Alex, my daughter. I think they both drove to Fort Worth.
I told them to do so--"Go to Fort Worth and help them, they have no car, they have no money--help them to move."
I think in the meantime Lee found a job at Jaggars, and was looking for a place to live, and found a place to live himself in Oak Cliff, this address which I don't remember now--the first address in Oak Cliff. He had two addresses. I forget the exact address. My wife will remember that.
Anyway, my daughter and her husband went there and moved them.
Mr. JENNER. When was this?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, maybe 2 weeks after we met the Oswalds.
Mr. JENNER. September of 1962?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. About that time about September.
A little before that, I think, because in September we started the campaign on the cystic fibrosis, and we completely lost track of them--we were very busy on that. And I think it was in September that this campaign started.
Mr. JENNER. And before you started your campaign on cystic fibrosis, they had already moved to Dallas?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. They already moved to Dallas. We already had moved them--had taken Marina away from her husband. And she already had returned back to her husband.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, you say you had already taken Marina away from her husband. Tell us how that occurred.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. In the meantime, George Bouhe became completely disgusted with Lee.
Mr. JENNER. Why?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Because I don't know exactly why--because he liked Marina very much.
Mr. JENNER. Bouhe?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Bouhe he is an elderly man.
Mr. JENNER. Yes, I appreciate that.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. He wanted--almost like a daughter, you see. To him she was a poor girl whose father was an ex-officer, and she needed help. And he really gave. her money. He would give her $30, $40, I think, all at once.
Mr. JENNER. Did he ever collect money from you and others to contribute?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't think so.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever give Lee Oswald any money?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. No.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever give Marina any money?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Not as far as I remember. Maybe a dollar--maybe 50 cents, something like that, for a bus. But never any money. I was in very difficult financial condition myself at that time. I don't think I gave her even 50 cents.
Sometimes we would invite them to eat a little bit, you see, in the house.
Mr. JENNER. You invited them to your home to eat?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. I think maybe once or twice they came to the house to eat.
Mr. JENNER. Your home on Dickens Street?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. All right, tell us the circumstances----
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Of how we took her away?
Mr. JENNER. And why.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, George Bouhe, started telling me that "George, Lee is beating Marina. I saw her with a black eye and she was crying, and she tried to run away from the house. It is outrageous."
And he was really appalled by the fact that it actually happened. And Jeanne and I said, let's go and see what is going on George Bouhe gave me their address, as far as I remember, there in Oak Cliff, because, I didn't move them---it was my daughter who moved them, I think.
So we drove up there to that apartment, which was on the ground floor, and indeed Marina had a black eye. And so either my wife or I told Lee, "Listen, you cannot do things like this."
Mr. JENNER. Was he home at this time?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I think he was. Or maybe he wasn't. I just am not so sure. Maybe he was, maybe he wasn't. But anyway, he appeared a little later.
Mr. JENNER. While you were still there, he appeared?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And when you entered that apartment on the first floor, you observed that she had a black eye?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. A black eye, and scratched face, and so on and so forth.
Mr. JENNER. Did you inquire about it?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. What did she say?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. She said, "He has been beating me." As if it was normal--not particularly appalled by this fact, but "He has been beating me", but she said "I fight him back also."
So I said, "You cannot stand for that. You shouldn't let him beat you."
And she said, "Well, I guess I should get away from him."
Now, I do not recall what actually made me take her away from Lee.
Mr. JENNER. Now, Mr. De Mohrenschildt. there has to be something.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, I know.
I do not recall whether she called us in and asked us to take her away from him or George Bouhe suggested it. I just don't recall how it happened. But it was because of his brutality to her. Possibly we had then in the house and discussed it, and I told him he should not do things like that, and he said, "It is my business"--that is one of the few times that he was a little bit uppity with me.
And then again George Bouhe told me that he had beaten her again. This is a little bit vague in my memory, what exactly prompted me to do that. My wife probably maybe has a better recollection.
Anyway, on Sunday, instead of playing tennis, we drove to Marina's place early in the morning and told Oswald that we are going to take her away from him, and the baby also, and we are going to take her to Mr. and Mrs. Meller. I think George Bouhe made the previous arrangement, because he was closer to the Mellers than I was. Or maybe I called them. I don't remember exactly.
Anyway, they were ready to receive her.
And Lee said, "By God, you are not going to do it. I will tear all her dresses and I will break all the baby things."
And I got very mad this time. But Jeanne, my wife, started explaining to him patiently that it is not going to help him any--"Do you love your wife?" He said yes. And she said, "If you want your wife back some time, you better behave."
I said, "If you don't behave, I will call the police."
I felt very nervous about the whole situation--interfering in other people's affairs, after all.
Well, he said, "I will get even with you."
I said, "You will get even with me?" I got a little bit more mad, and I said, "I am going to take Marina anyway."
So after a little while he started--and I started carrying the things out of the house. And Lee did not interfere with me. Of course, he was small, you know, and he was a rather puny individual.
After a little while he helped. me to carry the things out. He completely changed his mind.
Mr. JENNER. He submitted to the inevitable?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. He submitted to the inevitable, and helped me to carry things. And we cleaned that house completely.
We have a big convertible car, and it was loaded everything was taken out of that house. And we drove very slowly all the way to the other part of the town, Lakeside, where the Mellers lived, and left her there.
Mr. JENNER. Did Lee accompany you?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. No; that was it. The next day or a few days later--I don't remember exactly when--George Bouhe called me and said, "George, you should not give Lee the address of where Marina is." I think he came to see me about that--"because he is a dangerous character, and he has been threatening me, and he had been threatening Marina on the telephone."
Mr. JENNER. He knew where Marina was?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Maybe I am confused a little bit. He knew George Bouhe's telephone number. He had been threatening him, and wanted to know the telephone number or the address of where Marina was. And this time my wife and I said we do not have the right not to let him know where she is, because she is his wife, and we should tell him where Marina is.
Now, I do not recall how it happened--maybe Lee came over to our apartment in the evening. Anyway, we gave him the address of the Mellers, you see, and told him that the best way for him to do is to call ahead of time if he wants to see Marina, talk to her on the telephone, and if she wants to see him, she will see him. And he was very happy about that--because I thought it was a fair thing for the fellow to do.
I repeat again---I liked the fellow, and I pitied him all the time. And this--- if somebody did that to me, a lousy trick like that, to take my wife away, and all the furniture, I would be mad as hell, too. I am surprised that he didn't do something worse.
I would not do it to anybody else. I just didn't consider him a dangerous person. I would not do it to somebody else.
Well, anyway, later on--this is from hearsay again, now---Marina moved to Declan Ford's house, because I think the Mellers got tired of her, and then she moved eventually to somebody else's house the name you mentioned here before a Russian girl who married an American--Thomas something.
Mr. JENNER. Ray?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Ray. She moved to Ray's house, and then----
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. You took her to the Mellers?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And she went from the Mellers to the Halls?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. That I do not remember any more. I do not recall that. I thought she moved from the Mellers to Mrs. Ford, and from Mrs. Ford to the house of the Rays.
What I recall now is that she had moved before to Mrs. Hall's house.
Mr. JENNER. You learned that she had already been at Mrs. Hall's home?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Something like that is in my mind--that she had already tried to go away from Lee, and stayed with Mrs. Hall. But I am not 100 percent sure.
I know that for the second time she was at Mrs. Hall's house, a little bit later.
Mr. JENNER. What was your understanding of the difficulties they were having?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Why was he physically beating her?
The difficulties were this: She was---just incompatibility. They were annoying each other, and she was all the time annoying him. Having had many wives, I could see his point of view. She was annoying him all the time "Why don't you make some money?", why don't they have a car, why don't they have more dresses, look at everybody else living so well, and they are just miserable flunkeys. She was annoying him all the time. Poor guy was going out of his mind.
Mr. JENNER. And you and your wife were aware of this, were you?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And had discussed it
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. We told her she should not annoy him--poor guy, he is doing his best,. "Don't annoy him so much." And I think I mentioned before one annoying thing. She openly said he didn't see her physically--right in front of him. She said, "He sleeps with me just once a month, and I never get any satisfaction out of it." A rather crude and completely straightforward thing to say in front of relative strangers, as we were.
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I didn't blame Lee for giving her a good whack on the eye. Once it was all right. But he also exaggerated. I think the discussions were purely on that basis--purely on a material basis, and on a sexual basis, those two things--which are pretty important.
Mr. JENNER. Yes; they are.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. In politics they agreed more or less. She they were both somewhat dissatisfied with life in Soviet Russia. I had that impression. They wanted a richer life. And as far as I remember, it was Marina who convinced Oswald to leave Soviet Russia, and go back to the United States.
Mr. JENNER. You have a definite----
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I have a definite recollection of that. I do not recall in exact words how it was said. But either one of them told me that---that it was Marina who wanted to come to the States, and made him go to the---back to the United States Embassy, and ask for his passport. And I remember very distinctly what he told me, that he illegally took a train from Minsk to Moscow, because being a foreigner, he was not supposed to leave town without notifying the police. He did that illegally, and went to Moscow, and presented himself at the United States Embassy.
Mr. JENNER. Did it come to your attention, or did he ever say to you that--even before he was married, that he had determined to return to the United States, and had taken some steps to do so?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I don't recall any of that.
Mr. JENNER. Your distinct recollection, however, is that she did tell you that she desired to come to the United States, and she pressed him to do so?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; and possibly he was disgusted by that time also, because he was the fellow who needed attention, he was a new fellow in Minsk, a new American, so they were all interested in him. And then they lost interest in him eventually. So he became nothing. again. So he got disgusted with it. And Marina told him, "Let's go back to the States, and you take me to the States." Now, what is not clear to me--and I never inquired into it, because I was not particularly interested--how she got the permission from the Soviet Government to leave. That I don't know.
Mr. JENNER. You never discussed that with her?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Never discussed that. Somehow I was not interested to ask her that question. I should have, possibly.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever ask him about it?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Never asked him this question.
Testimony Of George S. De Mohrenschildt Resumed
The testimony of George S. De Mohrenschildt was taken at 9 a.m., on April 23, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C., by Mr. Albert E. Jenner, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission. Dr. Alfred Goldberg, historian, was present.
(Having been previously duly sworn.)
Mr. JENNER. On the record.
Mr. De Mohrenschildt, you testified yesterday it was your then recollection that Marina did not live with your daughter, Alexandria, then Mrs. Gary Taylor.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. That's right. I think she spent one night with them, but never lived with them, as far as I know.
Mr. JENNER. Maybe that's it. Now, perhaps to refresh your recollection, Marina testified--this question was put to her. "Did you have anything to do with the Gary Taylors?" "Answer: Yes; at one time when I had to visit the dentist in Dallas, and I lived in Fort Worth, I came to Dallas and I stayed with them for a couple of days."
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. She probably is right. I think she spent only one day. But I could not swear to that.
Mr. JENNER. Now, I want to stimulate your recollection in another respect. Your daughter has made a statement that in September of 1962, "My father asked me to allow Marina Oswald and her child to reside with me at my then home at 1512 Fairmont Street, Dallas. My father explained that Lee Harvey Oswald and his wife Marina had recently arrived in Dallas, Tex. They had no money and Lee Oswald was unemployed. He told me that while Marina resided with me, Lee Oswald would reside at the YMCA." Does that serve to refresh your recollection?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I frankly do not remember. I have the impression that I said "Help her as much as you can," but I do not recall saying that she would live with them. I do not think I would have imposed that on my daughter.
Mr. JENNER. Well, that testimony of Marina that she did live with your daughter for several days, and your daughter's statement, does not----
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I do not know about it. Maybe they did, maybe they did not I just do not recall that.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I repeat again that they were out of my mind--completely--after the last time we saw them.
Mr. JENNER. Well, this is September of 1962.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. 1962, sure. They were out of my mind. I forgot the Oswalds.
Mr. JENNER. No; 1962, sir.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. No, no. Now the Oswalds were out of my mind.
Mr. JENNER. You mean you have not been thinking about them.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I have not been thinking about them.
May I say a few things here that I remember? As I told you before, we met the Oswalds through Bouhe, and then we talked about them to Max Clark, and again to Bouhe. And I asked Mr. Bouhe "Do you think it is safe for us to help Oswald?"
Mr. JENNER. You did have that conversation.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Why did you raise that question?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I raised the question because he had been to Soviet Russia. He could be anything, you see. And he could be right there watched day and night by the FBI. I did not want to get involved, you see. And I distinctly remember, No. 1, that George Bouhe said that he had checked with the FBI. Secondly, that in my mind Max Clark was in some way connected with the FBI, because he was chief of security at Convair--he had been a chief of security. And either George Bouhe or someone else told me that he is with the FBI to some extent. You never ask people "Are you from the FBI?" And to me it is unimportant. But somehow in my mind I had this connected. And so my fears were alleviated, you see. I said, "Well, the guy seems to be OK." Now, I am not so clear about it, but I have the impression to have talked--to have asked about Lee Oswald also Mr. Moore, Walter Moore.
Mr. JENNER. Who is Walter Moore?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Walter Moore is the man who interviewed me on behalf of the Government after I came back from Yugoslavia---G. Walter Moore. He is a Government man---either FBI or Central Intelligence. A very nice fellow, exceedingly intelligent who is, as far as I know--was some sort of an FBI man in Dallas. Many people consider him head of FBI in Dallas. Now, I don't know. Who does--you see. But he is a Government man in some capacity. He interviewed me and took my deposition on my stay in Yugoslavia, what I thought about the political situation there. And we became quite friendly after that. We saw each other from time to time, had lunch. There was a mutual interest there, ,because I think he was born in China and my wife was born in China. They had been to our house I think once or twice. I just found him a very interesting person. When I was writing this book of mine, a very peculiar incident occurred.
Mr. JENNER. Which book?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. The last one the travelogue. One day we left for Houston on a business trip, and I left all my typewritten pages, some 150 typewritten pages, in my closet. When I returned from the trip and started looking through the pages, which had not been touched, supposedly, by anybody I noticed small marks on the pages--"No. 1" after five pages, "2"--small marks with a pencil, another five pages, No. 3, and so on and so forth.
I told my wife "Jeanne, have you fiddled around with my book?" She said, "Of course not." I said, "That's impossible." And I forgot it for a while.
In the evening we got back home, and we stayed in bed, and all of a sudden the idea came back to me that somebody must have been in my apartment and checked my book and read through that and took photographs. And it was such a horrible idea that Jeanne and I just could not sleep all night. And the next morning we both of us went to see Walter Moore and told him, "Now, look what happened to us. Have you Government people"--and I think I asked him point blank, you know--"Have you FBI people looked through my book?" He said, "Do you consider us such fools as to leave marks on your book if we had? But we haven't." I said, "Can't you give me some protection against somebody who has?" He said, "Do you have any strong enemies?" I said, "Well, I possibly have. Everybody has enemies." But I never could figure out who it was. And it is still a mystery to me.
So I am not so sure whether I asked point blank Clark or Walter Moore about Oswald. I probably spoke to both of them about him. My recollection is, and also my wife's recollection is, that either of them said he is a harmless lunatic. Later on Max got disgusted with him and said that he is a no-good b - - - - - d, a traitor, and so on and so forth. But by that time we already forgot Oswald--got Oswald out of your lives, you see. This is one point.
The second point is as you can see the whole of the Russian colony in Dallas were interested in Oswald one way or the other, because they represented somebody who had been to their old country just recently, and could give them the latest information on what was going on. As I said, the old guard were naturally against them right away. The others were just curious. But this particular couple, Natasha and Igor Voshinin, refused to see them. And I insisted several times, "Why don't you see them? You love all the Russians. Why don't you meet Marina Oswald?" And she said, "We don't want to, and we have our reasons for not meeting them." And it kept on in my mind. I did not want to raise that question. But why didn't they want to meet them?
Mr. JENNER. Well, tell me what is your speculation as to why they did not want to meet them?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I do not have the slightest idea. Maybe they knew something about Oswald, of some connection.
Mr. JENNER. Or maybe they were alarmed, and didn't want to take any chances.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Maybe just that.
Mr. JENNER. But they were pretty firm in not having any traffic with them.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Absolutely firm. The only ones. Maybe they were just more recently arrived in the United States and they were not so secure like we were, you see. And possibly they were just alarmed of meeting somebody who just came from Soviet Russia.
Mr. JENNER. I think I will ask you at this point, Mr. De Mohrenschildt, you are a man of very superior education and extremely wide experience and acquaintance here and in Europe, South America, West Indies--you have lived an extremely colorful life. You are acquainted to a greater or lesser degree with a great variety of people.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did there go through your mind speculations as to whether Oswald was an agent of anybody?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. No.
Mr. JENNER. Why? Before I put it that way--when you say "No," am correct in assuming that you thought about the subject and you concluded he was not an agent of anybody? Is that what you meant?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I never thought even about it. I will tell you why I thought he never was--because he was too outspoken. He was too outspoken in his ideas and his attitudes. If he were really--if he were an agent, I thought he would have kept quiet. This would be my idea.
Mr. JENNER. You say he was outspoken. What do you base that on?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. For instance, he showed me his--he discussed very freely with me, when he showed me his little memoirs.
Mr. JENNER. I am going to show you those papers in a little while.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Those memoirs I think are very sincere. They explain more or less the sincere attitude of a man, sincere opinion of a man.
Mr. JENNER. Before I show you any papers, I want you to finish this reasoning of yours.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I did not take him seriously--that is all.
Mr. JENNER. I know you didn't. Why didn't you?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Well----
Mr. JENNER. You are a highly sophisticated person.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, he was not sophisticated, you see. He was a semieducated hillbilly. And you cannot take such a person seriously. All his opinions were crude, you see. But I thought at the time he was rather sincere.
Mr. JENNER. Opinion sincerely held, but crude?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. He was relatively uneducated.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Oh, yes.
Mr. JENNER. Quite, as a matter of fact--he never finished high school.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I did not even know that.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have the feeling that his views on politics were shallow and surface?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Very much so.
Mr. JENNER. That he had not had the opportunity for a study under scholars who would criticize, so that he himself could form some views on the subject?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Exactly. His mind was of a man with exceedingly poor background, who read rather advanced books, and did not understand even the words in them. He read complicated economical treatises and just picked up difficult words out of what he has read, and loved to display them. He loved to use the difficult words, because it was to impress one.
Mr. JENNER. Did you think he understood it?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. He did not understand the words--he just used them. So how can you take seriously a person like that? You just laugh at him. But there was always an element of pity I had, and my wife had, for him. We realized that he was sort of a forlorn individual, groping for something.
Mr. JENNER. Did you form any impression in the area, let us say, of reliability---that is, whether our Government would entrust him with something that required a high degree of intelligence, a high degree of imagination, a high degree of ability to retain his equilibrium under pressure, a management of a situation, to be flexible enough?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I never would believe that any government would be stupid enough to trust Lee with anything important.
Mr. JENNER. Give me the basis of your opinion.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, again, as I said, an unstable individual, mixed-up individual, uneducated individual, without background. What government would give him any confidential work? No government would. Even the government of Ghana would not give him any job of any type.
Mr. JENNER. You used the expression "unstable." Would you elaborate on that?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, instability--his life is an example of his instability. He switched allegiance from one country to another, and then back again, disappointed in this, disappointed in that, tried various jobs. But he did it, you see, without the enjoyment of adventure like some other people would do in the United States, a new job is a new adventure, new opportunities. For him it was a gruesome deal. He hated his jobs. He switched all the time.
Mr. JENNER. Now, let's assume he switched jobs because he was discharged from those jobs. Does that affect your opinion? That is, assume now for the purpose of discussion that he lost every one of his jobs.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, frankly, if I--you always base your opinion on your own experience. If I had my own country since my childbirth, and my government, I would remain faithful to it for the rest of my life. He had a chance to be a marine. Here was a perfect life for him--this was my point of view. He was a man without education, in the Marines--why didn't he stay in the Marines all his life? You don't need a high degree of intelligence to be a marine corporal or a soldier.
Mr. JENNER. That is, it was your thought----
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. That was my idea.
Mr. JENNER. That if he had an objective that he could have had, it would be to stay in the Marines and become a marine officer, and have a career in the Marines.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. Well, instead of that he disliked it and switched to something else. I do not know the details of all his jobs, you see, .but I certainly can evaluate people just by looking at them--because I have met so many people in my profession--you have to evaluate them by just looking at them and saying a few words.
Mr. JENNER. Did you form an impression of him, Mr. De Mohrenschildt, as to his reliability in a different sense now--that is, whether he was reasonably mentally stable or given to violent surges of anger or lack of control of himself?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Of course, he was that. The fact that we took his wife away from him, you know, was the result of his outbursts and his threats to his wife.
Mr. JENNER. What kind of threats?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, that he will beat the bell out of her. I think Marina told me that he threatened to kill her. It comes back to my mind, you see. You asked me yesterday a question, what actually precipitated us taking Marina and the little child away from Oswald.
Mr. JENNER. You actually took Marina and the child away?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. So what actually precipitated that? Something must have precipitated it. I cannot recall what it was. But now I seem to vaguely remember that Marina said that he would kill her, that he will beat her sometime so hard that he will kill her. So that is the reason we went out there and said--well, let's save that poor woman.
Mr. JENNER. Where were they living then?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. They were living then at the first address in Oak Cliff--Ruth Street, I think. It is a two-story brick building.
Mr. JENNER. Mercedes?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Ruth Street. I do not remember Mercedes Street.
Mr. JENNER. Elsbeth?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Elsbeth--yes.
Mr. JENNER. He never lived on any street by the name of Ruth.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. No.
Mr. JENNER. Yesterday you adverted, I thought, to a concept that this man seemed--he responded when you would bring him into a conversation or situation.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. That he was somewhat egocentric in that respect?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Very much so. And that is probably the reason that he was clinging to me. He was clinging to me. He would call me. He would try to be next to me--because, let's face it, I am a promotor and a salesman. So I know how to talk with people. I usually do not offend people's feelings. When I talk to people, I am interested in them. And he appreciated that in me. The other people considered him, well, he is just some poor, miserable guy, and disregarded him.
Mr. JENNER. Now, I Would like to go into that a moment. It gradually developed, did it, that the people in the Russian colony, their curiosity--they had curiosity at the outset, and they had interest at the outset.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. They met him at your home and other homes?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. I take it you now suggest that after a while their interest in him waned?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. It disappeared mainly; yes.
Mr. JENNER. And was it replaced by something else?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Dislike, mostly dislike, and fear.
Mr. JENNER. What was the fear?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Especially on the part of a scary individual, like George Bouhe---he was actually physically afraid of him.
Mr. JENNER. George Bouhe was?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. George Bouhe. He was actually physically afraid of him. He told me, "I am scared of this man. He is a lunatic." I said, "Don't be scared of him. He is just as small as you are."
Mr. JENNER. Yes, but George Bouhe is a small man. You are a well-built, athletic, six foot-one. What did you weigh then?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. 185 pounds. I was not afraid of him, naturally, but George Bouhe was.
Mr. JENNER. And that is not your nature, anyhow, that is not your personality as I observe you testifying.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; he was that way, you know. Now, Max Clark naturally was not afraid of him because Max Clark himself is an athlete, an ex-colonel in the Air Force, I think. He just disliked him, and he said to hell with that fellow, because Lee was rude to him.
Mr. JENNER. Who was rude?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Lee Oswald was rude to Max Clark and to his wife. They invited him on some occasion--this I remember vaguely--they invited him at some occasion to come to their house. And Lee said, "Well, I will come if it is convenient to me." Imagine that--an answer of that type.
Mr. JENNER. Now, the Clarks, certainly Mr. Clark--I do not know too much about Mrs. Clark--but Mr. Clark is an educated man.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Very educated man.
Mr. JENNER. And a man of attainment. He is an attorney, is he not?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did it occur to you that here is a person who is relatively uneducated, of limited capacity--I think this man had intelligence----
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Being invited to the home socially of a man of capacity?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. A lawyer, a leader in the community with a fine service record. What was your reaction to that?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, Max invited him purely because his wife was Russian and she would like to speak Russian once in a while.
Mr. JENNER. You think Lee resented that, do you--that the interest was in Marina and not in Lee Oswald?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; definitely. Oh, that is an exceedingly important point, you know. Lee resented the interest that people would take in Marina. He wanted the interest concentrated on himself.
Mr. JENNER. And did he exhibit that in your home and at other gatherings where you saw him? Did he interrupt so that the attention might be drawn to him and away from her?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; he was not----
Mr. JENNER. I do not want to put the words in your mouth.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, I understand what you mean. I am trying to think of a particular case that I would remember. I do not remember any particular case, but I always took him and considered him as an egocentric person. I do not remember any particular incident, but I knew that he wanted the attention to himself, always. Not in any particular case, but always. And he would rather disregard what Marina would say. And this is possibly the reason for his not wanting to--for Marina to learn English, so she would stay completely in the background.
Mr. JENNER. Now, you opened that subject which I want to inquire of you about. Did you people in the Russian colony--did you consider that? Did you regard that as unusual?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Right from the very first day my wife told Marina, "You have to learn English, you have to be able to communicate, and especially since you do not get along with your husband and you are going to leave him some day--you have to be able to support your child and yourself. You have to learn English and start immediately on its" We gave her some records to study English--not mine, but my wife's and her daughter's records, of Shakespearian English, how to learn English, and they obviously still have those records.
Mr. JENNER. Yes, they were found in Mrs. Paine's home.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. We even gave them a phonograph, I think, a cheap phonograph, to play the records.
Mr. JENNER. You gave them records?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. You also gave them an instrument to play them on?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. A cheap phonograph, to play those records.
Mr. JENNER. What else do you recall giving them--dresses?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I do not---
Mr. JENNER. Toys for the baby?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Toys for the baby, definitely. And I am sure that my wife had given some dresses. But she will remember better than I do. But we never gave them one cent of money. This I recall--never--and Lee would not take money, you see. I might have given him a little bit if he had asked. But he was very proud about it. He resented when people gave something to Marina. Marina would take anything, you see---she would take anything from 5a2 up to anything. And the more the better. But Lee did not want to take anything. He had a very proud attitude. That is one of the reasons I sort of liked him, because of that. He was not a beggar, not a sponger.
Mr. JENNER. Did you notice over the period of time you knew him developments of resentment on his part of, say, these people in the Russian colony who had come here and had established themselves to a greater or lesser degree?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; it was a very strong resentment on his part. It was almost an insane jealousy of people who succeeded where he could not succeed.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever have any discussions with him on that? How did you acquire this feeling?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. That was again through my understanding of human nature, rather than from direct conversation. From hearsay, rather. You see, No. 1, for instance, the fact that he was so rude to the Clarks, because they lived very well. It is an insult in his face, the house that the Clarke have---very luxurious home, two cars, and so on and so forth. It is a slap in his face. This same thing that George Bouhe, a refugee, would give Marina $30 or $40 or a new baby crib, like that, like nothing. That was a slap in his face. The fact that I had a new convertible was a slap in his face. But he was not stupid enough just to say so. But you can feel that.
Mr. JENNER. Well, it might have been---
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. And maybe George Bouhe, unfortunately annoyed him unintentionally with that.
Mr. JENNER. Well, that might be possible. George Bouhe my impression of him is that he is a direct man.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. George Bouhe's intention was to take Marina away from Oswald very soon--not for himself, but to liberate her from Oswald. That is a fact.
Mr. JENNER. You had discussions with George Bouhe?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; he said, "We have to take this girl away from him," and this is one of the things that prompted us to take Marina and the child away from Oswald. We discussed all that with George Bouhe---to make her a little bit happier--maybe she will make another life for herself, and especially for the baby. I had lost my child, you know, just a year and a half before, or 2 years before. I am fond of babies. I wanted this baby to be happy and have some sort of a future.
Mr. JENNER. Did you discuss with Oswald this subject of Marina acquiring a greater facility in the command of the English language?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And what was----
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. He said, "I don't want her to study English because I want to speak Russian to her, I will forget my Russian if I do not practice it every day." These are the words which I remember distinctly. And how many times I told him, "You have to let your wife learn English. This is a very egotistical attitude on your part."
Mr. JENNER. Very selfish.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Very selfish. He would not answer to that.
Mr. JENNER. Did it occur to you as a possibility, or among others in the Russian colony, that he might have had another objective, and that is that she would return to Russia?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Never. That never occurred to me. I do not think that. Knowing Marina, she would never go back to Russia. She liked the United States. She liked the facilities of life here. Of course, you never know people. You cannot vouch for them. But that was our opinion. Maybe we simplified too much the matters. I do not know.
Mr. JENNER. Did there come a time in the spring or the midwinter of 1963, latter part of January, and in February, in which there was any discussion, or you learned that Marina had made application to the Russian Embassy to return to Russia?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. No.
Mr. JENNER. No discussion?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. No discussion of that.
Mr. JENNER. And except for my now uttering it, you have been wholly unaware of it?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Wholly unaware of it. Totally unaware of that, never heard of that. What we learned, at that period---that she had her child christened in the Greek Orthodox Church against Oswald's strong objections.
Mr. JENNER. Were you personally aware of those objections?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. No. I just heard that he objected to Marina doing it--and she took the child to church anyway and had the child christened. But I do not recall the circumstances. Somebody told me that.
Mr. JENNER. But you are unaware of any discussion of her returning to Russia in the spring or late winter of 1962--1963, that winter?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. No.
Mr. JENNER. And she never appealed to you that he was forcing her to make application to the Russian Embassy?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I do not recall anything of that kind.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. De Mohrenschildt, it appears to be the consensus in that Russian colony, that community, that. Oswald reached a point where he resented all the people other than you; that he had a liking for you.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, I explained to you that I do not know whether he had a liking or not.
Mr. JENNER. Or respect, or something.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I treated him nicely. My wife treated them like human beings, disregarding their bad qualities. Because that is our way of treating poor people. My philosophy is--you may object to that--but my philosophy is not to bend in front of the strong and be very nice to the poor---as nice as I can. And they were very miserable, lost, penniless, mixed up. So as much as they both annoyed me, I did not show it to them because it is like insulting a beggar--you see what I mean.
Well, the other Russians obviously do not have such a charitable attitude. I do not think he has ever been, for instance--I am trying to think whether he had a resentment against all of the Russian colony or not. I would not say so. I do not know how was his attitude toward Mr. Gregory. I think they remained pretty--not close, but on speaking term's.
Mr. JENNER. That seems to be so.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Because Mr. Gregory is a very fine person--very fine person, who is an elderly man, who is nice to a poor person.
Mr. JENNER. Your impression is that he, to use the vernacular a little bit--he was sort of eating on himself, he wanted to amount to something, and he appeared to be unable to, and was constantly groping.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. That is his main--his makeup---trying to do something. One conversation I had with him--I asked him "Would you like to be a commissar in the United States," just teasing him. And he said--he sort of smiled--you could see that it was a delightful idea. To me it was a ridiculous question to ask. But he took me seriously. I laughed with the guy. Sometimes I would laugh, I would tease him. And it was amusing. But I tried not to offend him, because, after all, he was a human being. And in addition to that--in my case we had a point of contact which was the fact that he lived in Minsk, where I lived when I was a child also, where my father was this marshal of nobility. And later on in life I lived in Poland, very close to that area, I was interested in how the peasants were getting along, what does he find in the forest there, what kind of mushrooms you find, that type of conversation went on sometimes.
Mr. JENNER. Did he appear to have knowledge and recollection of things in which you were interested in the community, the countryside?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Very much so. That was a likable characteristic he had. For instance, he liked animals. My dog was sort of friendly with him. When he would come, my dog would not bark. He liked walking. He told me that around Minsk he used to take long walks in the forest which I thought was very fine. Those are contacts that possibly brought a certain understanding between us. He spoke very interestingly about the personalties of fellow workers there at his factory.
Mr. JENNER. I want you to keep ruminating in this fashion, because these things will come to you. What did he say about his work there?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, he said that the work was all right, not too hard, not too well paid, that it was very boring. That later, after the work, he had to be present at all sorts of meetings, political meetings. He said he got bored to death. Every day he had to stay for an hour at some kind of a meeting, the factory meeting. And this is a thing I thought was very intelligent because that is one of the points that is really hateful in a Communist country---the meetings after work. That I noticed through my own experience in Yugoslavia, that the engineers and the plain workers just hated that--a political meeting after working 8 hours. And Lee Oswald also resented that in Russia. And I thought it was a rather intelligent---one of the intelligent remarks that he made. And he repeated that very often--that is the thing he hated in Russia; resented, rather than hated.
Well, he described the personalities of some of the people that he knew there which I do not recall anymore. But some of them nice, and some of them less nice, and some of them very much interested in the United States, some of them unfriendly--that sort of vague recollection.
Mr. JENNER. Did you engage him in conversation respecting Communism as a political ideal and his reactions to that?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. He kept on repeating that he was not a Communist. I asked him point blank, "Are you a member of the Communist Party?" And he said no. He said, "I am a Marxist." Kept on repeating it.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ask him what he meant by that?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I never frankly asked him to elaborate on that because again, you know the word "Marxism" is very boring to me. Just the sound of that word is boring to me.
Mr. JENNER. What impression did you get in that connection as to whether he was seeking some mean or middle ground between democracy and what he thought Communism was?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Possibly he was seeking for something, but knowing what kind of brains he had, and what kind of education, I was not interested in listening to him, because it was nothing, it was zero.
Mr. JENNER. I see. It was your impression, then he could contribute nothing?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. No, he could contribute absolutely nothing except for a remark like that about the meetings, which was just an ordinary remark a person of his intelligence could understand. But when it comes to dialectic materialism, I do not want to hear that word again.
Mr. JENNER. Did discussions occur as to his attempted defection?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. From the United States to Russia?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. How it happened?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Why it happened and how it happened?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Tell me about that.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. A few words I remember now. He said that while he was in Japan he saw tremendous injustice. By that he meant, I think, the poverty of the Japanese working class or the proletariat, as he called them, and the rich people in Japan. He said it was more visible than anywhere else. Now, I have never been in Japan, and I cannot vouch for that. But that is what he told me. And he also told me that he had some contacts with the Japanese Communists in Japan, and they--that got him interested to go and see what goes on in the Soviet Union.
Mr. JENNER. Just concentrate on this, please. Tell me everything you can now recall as to what he said about--you used the term, what we lawyers call a conclusion. You said he had some contacts with the Communists in Japan Now, try and recall what he said or as near----
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I see what you mean.
Since it was so removed from my interest, I did not insist. I just heard that.
Mr. JENNER. Just give me your best recollection.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. That is all I recall--that he said, "I have met some Communists in Japan and they got me excited and interested, and that was one of my inducements in going to Soviet Russia, to see what goes on there."
Mr. JENNER. Did you form any opinion that this man, because of his meager boyhood, on the verge of poverty, or in poverty all during his youth and up to the time he went into the Marines at least, that he had some groping for a ready solution that would not permit that sort of thing?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Naturally. That's the whole point. I could understand his point of view, because that is what happens exactly in the whole world with dissatisfied people. If they are constructive, they study more and try to get good jobs and succeed. The other try to form a revolutionary party. And he was one of them.
Mr. JENNER. The other try to do it overnight, by force of arms.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever discuss with him that there are many great men and women who have come from poverty?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Oh, yes. You could not discuss it with Oswald because he knew it all.
Mr. JENNER. He always knew what the answer was.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. He always knew what the answer was. And possibly that is why he was clinging to us, to my wife and me, because we did not discuss it with them, because we did not give a damn. After we found out what was going on in that town of Minsk, what was the situation, what were the food prices, how they dressed, how they spent their evenings, which are things interesting to us, our interest waned. The rest of the time, the few times we saw Lee Oswald and Marina afterwards, was purely to give a gift, to take them to a party, because we thought they were dying of boredom, you see---which Marina was.
Mr. JENNER. She was?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. She was, because he never would take her any place. That was the reason we invited them twice once to a party at Declan Ford's--and that was, I think, a Christmas party. And another time a party at Everett Glover's, where I was showing my movie to the whole group. Because I thought they would be exceedingly--Marina was dying of boredom there.
Mr. JENNER. Let me get to that party at Declan Ford's. That was--was that a New Year's Day or New Year's Eve party?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I think it was right at Christmas or New Year's Eve.
Mr. JENNER. The party went on for a couple of days, didn't it?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. A couple of days?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I did not know that the party ran for a couple of days. But we arrived at 9 o'clock and left around 1 or 2, and it was still going strong.
Mr. JENNER. Well, I suppose when a witness said it lasted a couple of days, maybe the witness was thinking it started in the early evening of one day and did not end until well into the next day.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. No; it was not any of those wild parties. It was a very friendly, very good party.
Mr. JENNER. I'm not suggesting the party was wild. There is no intimation of that.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. No on the contrary, they are very hospitable people invited, and always had a congenial crowd there. And that is why we suggested, let's bring that miserable Marina and Oswald there, so they would meet some people. And I think if people continued doing that, if people did that, maybe this tragedy might not have occurred.
Mr. JENNER. Or it might have become worse his resentment.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Maybe so.
Mr. JENNER. Did Marina smoke?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. Oh, boy, this is an interesting question. She loved to smoke and would smoke as many cigarettes as she could lay her hands on. And you know, Oswald did not smoke and forbade her to smoke. This is the reason---one of the reasons they fought so bitterly--because he would take the cigarette away from her and slap her.
Mr. JENNER. In your presence?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. In my presence, would take the cigarette away from her and push her, "You are not going to do that", in a dictatorial way. So I would say, "Now, stop it, let her smoke." And then he would relax. But that is the type of person he was. But not in our presence when we were away, Marina said he would not let her smoke nor drink, I think. He refused to let her drink either. And she liked to have a drink. With all her defects, she is more or less a normal person, and rather happy-go-lucky, a very happy-go-lucky girl.
Mr. JENNER. What about his drinking?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I never saw him drink. Maybe he would take a very little, but I never saw him drink more than half a glass--as far as I remember. I didn't pay too much attention. Maybe that is why he was tense, because he did not drink enough. He was always tense. That guy was always under some kind of pressure.
Mr. JENNER. You have that impression?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; always some kind of a pressure.
Mr. JENNER. And this was an inward pressure, you thought?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; some inward pressure.
Mr. JENNER. See if I can refresh your recollection a little about that party, the first of the parties. I am going to ask you about the second one as well in a moment.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Do you remember being present at that party Mr. and Mrs. Thomas Ray?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. If they are the people whom I identify as he being a man in the advertising business and she a girl of Russian origin--a friend of Mrs. Ford.
Mr. JENNER. He married her when he was in Germany.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; that's it--something like that. You know, in this group of the Russian emigres, there were two people who came from Soviet Russia--there were Mrs. Ford and this lady, an entirely different type of individual---the new blood. They were younger and they were brought up in Soviet Russia.
Mr. JENNER. Yes; they were people----
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. They were so-called--what do you call--- displaced persons, who were grabbed by the Germans and displaced in Germany, and then the American soldiers grabbed them and married them. Both of them were the same type. Very nice people, but they had a different background.
Mr. JENNER. Now, this party occurred on the 28th and 29th of December.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. As far as I remember, it was around New Year's Day.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I think I recall this person. grayish hair.
Mr. JENNER. From Georgetown, Tex.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. A tall man with grayish hair.
Mr. JENNER. His wife was Russian born.
Mr. JENNER. And it was at the Declan Fords?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Was George Bouhe there?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I think so.
Mr. JENNER. And Mr. and Mrs. Meller?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I think so, too. And a lot of other people.
Mr. JENNER. There is another Ray couple, Mr. and Mrs. Frank Ray.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. That I do not know.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. and Mrs. C. E. Harris?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I do not recall them.
Mr. JENNER. Charles E. Harris?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I think I recall this person. He is a tall man with grayish hair.
Mr. JENNER. From Georgetown, Tex.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. A tall man with grayish hair.
Mr. JENNER. His wife was Russian born.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't know them well. I probably would recognize them if I saw them.
Mr. JENNER. Were there some people by the name of Jackson at that party who had a very lavish house?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Jackson? I know a Jackson who has a very lavish house. He is a geologist also. But I do not recall seeing them at the party.
Mr. JENNER. There is some testimony that in the early morning hours the party adjourned to the Jackson's house.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, we had already left.
Mr. JENNER. John and Elena Hall. They were there.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I do not recall that. I met them, I think, only once I met her twice or three times. I recall her pretty well. But I do not recall him.
Mr. JENNER. Tatiana Biggers.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. That is the person I could not identify. I don't know who she is.
Mr. JENNER. Also present, Lydia Dymitruk.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I think so. I think I remember her.
Mr. JENNER. A single person, divorced.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I think I remember her.
Mr. JENNER. Slightly built, slender, short.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I remember her. She was married to some "cuckoo nut," another "cuckoo nut" who escaped from Soviet Russia--Dymitruk. He came to ask me for a job, her husband. He came to ask me for a job several times, and then he disappeared.
Mr. JENNER. Lydia Dymitruk's husband?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; her ex-husband. I understand she is a very nice person, very hard working, and is making a living for herself, and that she left him. That is my recollection.
Mr. JENNER. You brought the Oswalds to the party?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And----
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Having asked previously either myself or my wife---having asked Mrs. Ford would she mind having the Oswalds, because they seemed to be bored to death, especially Marina seemed to be bored to death. And she said yes.
Mr. JENNER. And after a while you folks left, around midnight?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And did you take the Oswalds with you?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I think we did. And this is the reason why--because I think they left the child in our house while they came to the party, and we asked another friend of ours, an elderly lady, Mrs. Frangipanni, to take care of the baby while they were gone, which she did.
Mr. JENNER. Did Oswald drink at that party?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. That I do not recall. I know I drank quite a few glasses.
Mr. JENNER. What impression did you have as to how the people at the party reacted to Marina and to Oswald--take them separately.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I did not pay any attention. I left them to their own devices. I spoke to various people. I thought I had done my duty by bringing them along. What really impressed me that particular night was an extraordinary interest which developed between this Japanese girl, Yaeko--I don't remember her last name--but I already had given that impression of mine at the American Embassy so they could check on that. She was a Japanese girl, very good looking, who worked, I think, at Neiman-Marcus in Dallas, and was brought into Dallas from Japan by some people in the cotton business to take care of their babies.
Now, this girl is a much superior girl as to be just a baby caretaker. She eventually left that couple that is all hearsay, you see, and became sort of a girl friend of a Russian musician who lives in Dallas by the name of Lev Aronson. And I do not recall whether he was at the party or not. But Yaeko was, and they developed an immediate interest in each other--Oswald and Yaeko. They just went on sight and started talking and talking and talking. I thought that was understandable because Oswald had been in Japan, you see. But the interest was so overwhelming that Marina objected, and became very jealous. She told us, either that night or later, that Oswald got her telephone number, she noticed that Oswald got this girl's telephone number. And once or twice later on she told us that she has the impression that Oswald is carrying on something with this girl. Now, this is hearsay again. But----
Mr. JENNER. Well, it is not hearsay that Marina told you.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; but hearsay that they are carrying something on. That is what she told us. But nothing definite.
Mr. JENNER. Did you notice any incidents in which--at that party--in which people----
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. My wife will tell you more about this Yaeko incident, because she knows a little bit better.
Mr. JENNER. I will make a note of that so I can talk to her about it.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. And she is more on the gossipy side. I'm always happy if a girl likes a boy and a boy likes a girl it does not matter who they are.
Mr. JENNER. Were there any incidents that you recall in which members at that party were talking with Marina and Oswald interrupted?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I do not recall, because I did not speak to them. I Just left them alone, hoping that they would find some people to talk to.
Mr. JENNER. And the contacts you had with Marina and Lee, was there ever any discussion on the subject of whether people in Russia when they were there were chary about talking with Lee because they were afraid he might be an agent of some kind?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. It is a question I have to try to think a little bit about.
I have a vague recollection that either Lee or Marina did tell me the people were afraid of him, and I think that was probably Oswald that told me, that the people were afraid of him, like many foreigners. So I thought that was very understandable, because you know the Communists are scared--not the Communists, but the people in Russia are scared to talk to foreigners.
We had an incident ourselves when we went to .Mexico, to a Russian exhibit, to a Russian Fair, and tried to speak to an architect there in charge of the architectural exhibit. This was a lady architect, a charming woman. We spoke to her for about 5 minutes, and then she disappeared, and you could not find her any more. She ran away from us. She was scared of us. That is the usual thing.
So I did not pay particular attention to that fact. If people were scared of talking to Oswald, it was understandable.
Mr. JENNER. Did that ever arise, discussions as to why--possibly affecting his desire to return to the United States?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I do not recall that. The most important answer I think I got from Oswald--and that was one of the reasons we liked him and thought that he was rather intelligent in his estimation of Soviet Russia--is the fact that we asked him, both my wife and I, "Why did you leave Soviet Russia", and he said very sincerely, "Because I did not not find what I was looking for."
Mr. JENNER. And did you ask him what he was looking for?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. A Utopia. I knew what he was looking for--Utopia. And that does not exist any place.
Mr. JENNER. This man could not find what he was looking for anywhere in this world.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. He could not find it in the States, he could not find it any place.
Mr. JENNER. He could find it only in him.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Exactly. He could find it in himself, in a false image of grandeur that he built in himself. But at the time that we knew him that was not so obvious. Now you can see that, as a possible murderer of the President of the United States, he must have been unbelievably egotistical, an unbelievably egotistical person.
Mr. JENNER. Do you know what paranoia is?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Well----
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I know it very well.
Mr. JENNER. Did you notice----
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Because I am interested in medicine.
Mr. JENNER. Did you notice any tendencies--this may be rationalization, of course, now that you are thinking back.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I would call him a stage below definite paranoia, which means a highly neurotic individual. But even an M.D. would not give you a right definition, or a right demarcation between the two.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have any feeling, while you knew him, and before this tragic event occurred, that there was any mental aberration of that nature?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I did not know anything about his background, you see. I did not know anything about his previous background, except that he had been in the Marine Corps, that he came from a poor family, that he had lived in New Orleans. That is all I knew about him.
Mr. JENNER. I wanted to ask you about that. Was your discussion with him as to his background, let us say, if I may use a conclusion myself, superficial?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Very superficial, because I was not--I know that type of person, I know his background. I know the people in New Orleans. I lived there. I know people in Texas of the very low category. I know the way they live. I could see clearly what type of background he had. I did not have to ask him questions. And he mentioned that while living in New Orleans, and very poorly, he started going to the public library to read the Marxist books, all by himself. That he was not induced by anybody. I said, "Who told you to read the Marxist books"--that interested me. And he said, "Nobody, I went by myself. I started studying it all by myself."
Mr. JENNER. He read those high-level books, but in your opinion he did not understand them?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I would not understand them. I would not bother reading them. I never read any Marxist books, because I know what they contain.
Mr. JENNER. But you could read them with a critical mind, could you not?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I could read with a critical mind. But that is something that does not interest me. And I know that they are very difficult. I know that they are written in a difficult manner, that they are highly theoretical, and to me very boring.
Mr. JENNER. There is some intimation that at this party Oswald had said several times that he liked Russia and he might go back. Did you overhear any of that?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. No.
Mr. JENNER. And from all your contact with him, had he ever expressed that notion to you, that he might go back?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I do not recall exactly, but something comes to my mind that he might have mentioned that, that if he does not get a better job, or if he does not become successful, he might as well go back to Russia.
Mr. JENNER. Well, this was really something said in despair.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. More or less--"After all, what is my life in Russia"---I remember he said that, that his life in Russia was actually better than here.
But Marina never said that.
Mr. JENNER. She didn't?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. No.
Mr. JENNER. Do you remember some people at that party by the name of Mr. and Mrs. Daniel F. Sullivan of Lafayette, La. a divisional geologist for Continental Oil Co.?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. No.
Mr. JENNER. Was there any discussion at that party about the possibility that Oswald might be a Russian agent?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I never heard that.
Mr. JENNER. And that this theory was thrown out because Oswald was broke, and that it could not be that way, because Russia would not permit one of its agents to be that penniless?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. That is an intelligent estimation, but I certainly have not heard that.
Mr. JENNER. Any discussion there or speculation that there was something peculiar in the fact that allegedly they had had little trouble in getting Marina out of Russia?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. That he had trouble getting her out?
Mr. JENNER. Relatively little.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. That is a question that always was sort of a big question mark to me. Not being interested, I did not probe them. But it always remained a question mark in my mind, how is it possible for somebody to take a citizen of Soviet Russia so easily out of the country. But I have known of other examples of it being done.
Mr. JENNER. Was there any discussion at any time while you knew the Oswalds about any attempt to commit suicide?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. When he was in Russia, no; I don't remember anything about that.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever notice he had a scar on his left wrist?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I didn't notice it.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever note whether he was right or left handed?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Something vaguely I remember that he might be left handed but I could not recall.
Mr. JENNER. This is pure vagueness on your part?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Very, very. My wife may recall that.
Mr. JENNER. You wouldn't want to express any opinion one way or the other on it?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. No.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever discuss with him his experiences in Russia with respect to hunting?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Never have.
Mr. JENNER. No discussions?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Or the use of any weapons or his right to have weapons when he was in Russia?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I did not know even that he was interested in weapons 'til the day--which probably you will ask me later on--Easter, I think, when my wife saw his gun. I didn't know he was interested. I didn't know he had the gun. I didn't know he was interested in shooting or hunting. I didn't know he was a good shot or never had any impression.
Mr. JENNER. Now that you have mentioned that we might as well cover that fully in the record.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Tell me about that incident.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. That incident is very clear in my mind.
Mr. JENNER. This was in 1963?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. In 1963, and the last time we saw them.
Mr. JENNER. It was the last time?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. The very last time we saw them.
Mr. JENNER. This was around Eastertime?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Around Eastertime.
Mr. JENNER. In April?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. In April. It was in the second apartment that they had.
Mr. JENNER. That was on Neely Street?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. On Neely I think one block from the previous place they used to live.
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. And Jeanne told me that day, "Let's go and take a rabbit for Oswald's baby."
Mr. JENNER. This was on Easter Sunday?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Easter day. I don't remember it was Easter Sunday.
Mr. JENNER. Easter is always on Sunday.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; maybe it was the day before, the day after, but I think it was on the holiday. Maybe my wife will remember the date exactly. And so we drove over quite late in the evening and walked up--I think they were asleep. They were asleep and we knocked at the door and shouted, and Lee Oswald came down undressed, half undressed you see, maybe in shorts, and opened the door and we told him that we have the rabbit for the child. And it was a very short visit, you know. We just gave the rabbit to the baby and I was talking to Lee while Jeanne was talking to Marina about something which is immaterial which I do not recall right now, and all of a sudden----
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. Mr. Reporter, Jeanne is spelled J-e-a-n-n-e.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. And I think Oswald and I were standing near the window looking outside and I was asking him "How is your job" or "Are you making any money? Are you happy," some question of that type. All of a sudden Jeanne who was with Marina in the other room told me "Look, George, they have a gun here." And Marina opened the closet and showed it to Jeanne, a gun that belonged obviously to Oswald.
Mr. JENNER. This was a weapon? Did you go in and look?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I didn't look at the gun. I was still standing. The closet was open. Jeanne was looking at it, at the gun, and I think she asked Marina "what is that" you see. That was the sight on the gun. "What is that? That looks like a telescopic sight." And Marina said "That crazy idiot is target shooting all the time." So frankly I thought it was ridiculous to shoot target shooting in Dallas, you see, right in town. I asked him "Why do you do that?"
Mr. JENNER. What did he say?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. He said "I go out and do target shooting. I like target shooting." So out of the pure, really jokingly I told him "Are you then the guy who took a pot shot at General Walker?" And he smiled to that, because just a few days before there was an attempt at General Walker's life, and it was very highly publicized in the papers, and I knew that Oswald disliked General Walker, you see. So I took a chance and I asked him this question, you see, and I can clearly see his face, you know.
He sort of shriveled, you see, when I asked this question.
Mr. JENNER. He became tense?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Became tense, you see, and didn't answer anything, smiled, you know, made a sarcastic--not sarcastic, made a peculiar face.
Mr. JENNER. The expression on his face?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right, changed the expression on his face.
Mr. JENNER. You saw that your remark to him----
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Had an effect on him.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Had an effect on him. But naturally he did not say yes or no, but that was it. That is the whole incident. I remember after we were leaving, Marina went in the garden and picked up a large bouquet of roses for us. They have nice roses downstairs and gave us the roses to thank for the gift of the rabbit.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall an occasion when you came to their home----
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Excuse me, before I forget I wanted to insist on one thing which I meant to tell you before that. What was the main thing that I really liked about Oswald, you see. You asked me that question before.
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. He was ferociously, maybe too much so, for integration, advocate of integration. He said that it was hurting him, the fact that the colored people did not have the same rights as the white ones, and this is my opinion also, you see. I was very strongly opposed to segregation, and I am sometimes very violent on that subject, because it hurts me that I live in Texas you know and I do not have colored friends I cannot afford to have colored friends, you see. It annoys me. It hurts me. I am ashamed of myself. And I try to make some friends among the colored people and the situation is such that it is hard to keep their friendship in Texas, you know. So I know what the situation is. On that point Oswald and I agreed. And this is another reason why Oswald and Bouhe fought so bitterly, because Bouhe is a segregationist. He is an old-guard segregationist that he learned from the Texans you know that the colored man is just a flunky. And I had quite a few fights with him about that, with Bouhe. And possibly Iris animosity, Oswald's animosity to Bouhe and vice versa were based on that, you see, although I am not so sure about it. But I assumed that that was one of the reasons.
And I think that was a very sincere attitude on his behalf, very sincere.
Mr. JENNER. I would like to return to this gun, this weapon incident, the Walker incident.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Was there ever an occasion after this time, when you and Mrs. De Mohrenschildt came to see the Oswalds, that as soon as you opened the door, you said, "Lee, how is it possible that you missed?"
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Never. I don't recall that incident.
Mr. JENNER. You have now given me your full recollection of that entire rifle incident?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Weapon incident, and what you said to him?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, yes, yes, yes; that is right. How could I have--my recollections are vague, of course, but how could I have said that when I didn't know that he had a gun you see. I was standing there and then Jeanne told us or Marina, you know, the incident just as I have described it, that here is a gun, you see. I remember very distinctly saying, "Did you take the potshot at General Walker?"
The same meaning you know, "Did you miss him," about the same meaning? I didn't want him to shoot Walker. I don't go to that extent you see.
Mr. JENNER. You didn't want him to shoot anybody?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Anybody. I didn't want him to shoot anybody. But if somebody has a gun with a telescopic lens you see, and knowing that he hates the man, it is a logical assumption you see.
Mr. JENNER. You knew at that time that he had a definite bitterness for General Walker?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I definitely knew that, either from some conversations we had on General Walker, you know--this was the period of General Walker's, you know, big showoff, you know.
Mr. JENNER. He was quite militant wasn't he.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. He was, yes----
Mr. JENNER. Mr. De Mohrenschildt, up to that moment, is it your testimony that you never knew and had no inkling whatsoever, that the Oswalds had a rifle or other weapon in their home?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Absolutely positive that personally I didn't know a damn thing about it, positive, neither did my wife.
Mr. JENNER. And as far as you know your wife didn't either?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. No.
Mr. JENNER. Did you see the weapon?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I did not see the weapon.
Mr. JENNER. I won't show it to you then. Was there any discussion about the weapon thereafter?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. No, no discussion. That ended the conversation, the remark about Walker, ended the conversation. There was a silence after that, and we changed the subject and left very soon afterwards.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have a feeling that he was uncomfortable?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Very, very uncomfortable, but I still did not believe that he did it, you see. It was frankly a stupid joke on my part. As the time goes by it shows that sometimes it is not so stupid. But you know my wife will tell you probably that I have a very stupid, bad sense of humor, she says, you know.
Mr. JENNER. Some people say you have a sadistic sense of humor.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Possibly. She says so also, my wife usually says that I like to tease people.
Mr. JENNER. And you do, don't you?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. She dislikes it. I like to, certainly, and I don't mind if people tease me. I never get mad you know. It is perfectly all right if somebody teases me.
Mr. JENNER. Are you a member of a group in Dallas known as the Bohemian Club?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Oh, yes, yes.
Mr. JENNER. Tell us about the Bohemian Club. Did you organize it?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; Mr. Ballen and I organized it together and the occasion arose one day when Mr. Ballen and I were driving back from a well, an oil well we were driving far away from Dallas. It was a long drive and we were discussing our lives in Dallas and a little bit exchange about the sort of boring people we have around in Dallas you know, nothing but Texans. And then by God, says Ballen, "We should do something about it. We should organize--there are some interesting people in Dallas. We should organize a group for free discussion. And also we should put--we all like to eat well. Let's combine it with good eating." And that is how the idea originated.
Mr. JENNER. And you called it what?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. We called it the Bohemian Club, a little bit based on the Bohemian Club in San Francisco. And we invited--we decided to invite people who are sort of unusual and in different professions, and that no business should be discussed during the meetings, that the member whose turn it is to make a speech should also provide the dinner, and either cook it himself or his wife would cook it or he should invite all of us to a restaurant of his choice. This lasted I guess for a year or 2 years you know. We had quite a few meetings, very interesting, controversial meetings, because the main point was that you had to express yourself freely on the subject which is very important to you. Then followed a discussion of all the other members.
Mr. JENNER. On the subject.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. On the subject.
Mr. JENNER. Was it intended that the discussions be provocative or presented in a provocative fashion?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. As much as possible, and we had some real lulus there, some very provocative discussions.
Mr. JENNER. Was there an occasion when you had this club at your home or restaurant that you supplied the meal?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; one day I think I made one particular speech that I made on the subject of Vlacsov's Army which are the White Russians and refugees who decided to fight with the Germans against Soviet Russia. They were helped by General Vlacsov who was a Soviet General, and then later on became Commander, was made prisoner by the Germans and then decided to fight the Communists, because obviously he was dissatisfied with the Stalinist regime, and it was quite a large group. I never met any people of that type, but Mr. Voshinin provided me the material on that subject, and I made this little speech and I think everybody was very satisfied with the speech except Lev Aronson who is a Jewish friend, a Jewish friend of mine who was in the German concentration camp and he obviously had met some of those Vlacsov soldiers, and anyway he criticized me quite a lot on that speech.
Mr. JENNER. Did he criticize you during the course of the meeting?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. During the course of the meal?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did you accuse anybody of being a Nazi?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Did he accuse?
Mr. JENNER. Did you?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Did I accuse anybody?
Mr. JENNER. In the way of provoking the discussion?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Of provoking the discussion? I don't remember that. Possibly I had, but I don't remember that. Actually he accused me more or less of being pro-Nazi by giving that speech you see. He accused me of being, which I am not you know, but that expresses my opinion of the difficulty that sometimes the refugees are in when their opinions, political opinions, differ with their own country you see. Those are the people who are fighting their own country because they were deeply inside anti-communists, you see. I didn't say that I was all for them you see. I just described this as an interesting incident because I just read a book on that subject or something you know, and I thought that it was an interesting incident of the last war that occurred.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever see Oswald operate an automobile?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I had the impression that he didn't know how to drive and I was quite surprised----
Mr. JENNER. What gave you the impression that he didn't know how to drive?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I couldn't swear to that, but I think I asked him "Do you know how to drive an automobile? Why don't you buy yourself an automobile" I remember saying.
Mr. JENNER. Where would he get the money?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, you know you can buy a car for $20, or $30, some old wreck, and somebody with any mechanical ability could fix it.
Mr. JENNER. What was his response to that?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I have the impression that he said that he didn't know how to drive, but I couldn't swear to that. And naturally Marina was needling him all the time to buy an automobile.
Mr. JENNER. Oh, she was?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; she was.
Mr. JENNER. You have a definite impression?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. A definite impression of that. She was needling him.
Mr. JENNER. Apart from an impression, as a matter of fact you were present and knew she was needling him to purchase an automobile.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I could almost swear to that, but again it is so vague I could not recall the exact words, you see.
Mr. JENNER. But you do have a definite impression of that?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, I have a definite impression of that. I might have put it in her mind you know. Either my wife or I might have put it in her mind because it is incomprehensible to live in Texas without an automobile. It is not like New York. They were completely isolated where they were living, you see.
Mr. JENNER. And you were suggesting it.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I might have suggested it.
Mr. JENNER. Because of that.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Or my wife.
Mr. JENNER. What impression, if you have any, do you have with respect to his sexual habits? Did you ever have any thoughts?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. As to whether he was a homosexual?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. No.
Mr. JENNER. He was not in your opinion?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't think so, I think he was an asexual person, asexual, and as I told you before, Marina was bitterly complaining about her lack of satisfaction. This is really the time that we decided just to drop them you see. One of the reasons you see we decided not to see them again, because we both found it revolting, such a discussion of marital habits in front of relative strangers as we were, see.
Mr. JENNER. And this occurred more than once?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. You see this occurred probably in the first period when we knew Oswald. You know there was a first period when we knew them, until about October. Then we didn't see them any more, and I think it was caused by many factors you know. We just got tired of them. We didn't like them. We did not like this particular remark about sex life, and other things you know. We just were not interested in them, and then the fact that she returned back to Oswald, see what I mean, after we had taken her away from him, that she went back to him that disgusted us.
We told her, "Now we helped you. We are not going to do anything more about you." And we didn't see them in October, November, December, see.
Mr. JENNER. Except for this party?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Except for the party, and then Christmas came and we thought well, the Oswalds all by themselves you know. It is Christmas time, we should take them out. For that period they were completely out of my mind you see. Then we decided to take them out, and I think it was in January after this party that we took them again to meet Everett Glover.
Mr. JENNER. I will get to that in a moment.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I think actually there were two parties that we took them to. One at Ford's and the other at Everett Glover's. No, pardon me, I made a mistake. We took them also, both of them one afternoon, and I think it was still in the first period of us knowing them, to the house of Admiral Bruton who is a friend of ours, and a retired U.S. Admiral who works in Dallas and has; both he and his wife are good friends of ours. And they are very kind people.
Mrs. Bruton loves the children. She is a grandmother, and we told her that here we have that miserable couple with a child, could we bring them to the pool 1 day? And she said "fine, bring them along." And we brought them to the pool, and no sooner the admiral saw Oswald you know, and heard a few words from him, he said "take this guy away from me." This Bruton was quite a hero in the war you know, and he immediately sensed that Oswald was a revolutionary character you see, and no good. He sensed that, being a military man you see. I think he asked him a few questions "is it true that you were in the Marine Corps?" And Oswald made kind of a sour face about the Marine Corps. So it was very short and very unpleasant interview because the admiral left you know, and his wife, being a kind person, stayed there for a while you know, and then we took the Oswalds back again.
Mr. JENNER. You never did use the pool?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. They never used the pool because I don't think Oswald liked swimming. And just recently I got a letter from Mrs. Bruton in Paris saying "is that the same man that you brought once to my house?" She has been reading the story of Oswald.
Mr. JENNER. When you went over to pick up the Oswalds to take them to that Christmas party did you enter their home?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. It is just vague to me. I don't remember how we got them. Whether I did or my wife did--I do not recall how it was done.
Mr. JENNER. I was going to ask you whether you noticed if they had a Christmas tree or any indication of celebration of Christmas?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I have some vague recollection of some kind of celebration but I do not recall.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever have any discussion with him as to whether he did or didn't believe in Christmas?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't remember. I assumed that he did not. Marina was naturally interested in Christmas.
Mr. JENNER. She was?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. She was.
Mr. JENNER. Did the Oswalds, either together or separately, come to your home frequently or several times and spend the day with you?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I was trying to pin down how many times we saw them in all, and it is very hard you know. I would say between 10 and 12 times, maybe more. It is very hard to say.
Usually they were together.
Mr. JENNER. She come alone?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Sometimes she came alone; yes. I don't recall his coming all by himself. I don't recall any incident.
Mr. JENNER. There was some testimony to the effect--I want you to pause before I ask you another question, exhaust your recollection on this.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Were there occasions when they came in the morning and stayed all day?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Marina might have stayed all day you see, or 3 or 4 hours you see. My wife will remember, will have a better recollection of that, because I was at that time busy on three projects, and really my mind was on something else, you see.
Mr. JENNER. Having exhausted your recollection, there is testimony to the effect, about Marina, that "we used to come early in the morning, and leave at night. We would spend the entire day with them. We went by bus."
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. By bus? My wife will remember that better. Possibly I was not at home you see. I was running around doing business, my business you know.
Mr. JENNER. You came to their home for short visits?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I came to their home for short visits, and sometimes would find Marina alone, maybe twice, something like that you see, would find Marina alone, and ask her, "How are you getting along? Goodbye."
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever visit them and bring some foodstuffs?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I do not recall that. My wife will remember that better than I do.
Mr. JENNER. Does this refresh your recollection in any degree, testimony that "the De Mohrenschildts visited us, they usually came for short visits. They brought their own favorite vegetables such as cucumbers. George likes cucumbers."
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I like cucumbers, and I am sure that my wife will remember that, because it was her idea, not mine. She was in charge of food you know. If they did spend the whole day with us, it is possible it was at the very beginning when my wife took Marina to the doctor, you know, and then brought her back again, something like that. I don't remember seeing them in the house all day long.
Mr. JENNER. But they might have been there all day long when you weren't a round.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. They might have been, might have been. My wife will remember that, you see.
Mr. JENNER. Were there occasions when they had meals at your house?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Oh, yes; I think so. I think so. I don't remember the exact occasion but I am sure that we fed them quite often, because they were hungry.
Mr. JENNER. As a matter of fact you went out of your way to see that they were fed?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, yes; I think so. My wife did, not I.
Mr. JENNER. Was there any discussion on your part with Oswald with respect to his family, his mother, his brothers?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; this is very interesting. I remember distinctly that Marina especially told me that they had lived with the brother, and that he told them to leave the house. Now we assumed that it was----
Mr. JENNER. Recapture your recollection a little more about this.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. It is something to that effect, you know, and it was a little bit surprising to me, and then after seeing her for a little while, I realized why they did, because she was incredibly lazy you see. She wouldn't help anybody.
Mr. JENNER. Who was incredibly lazy?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Marina, very lazy, wouldn't help anybody with anything. When she stayed for instance with the Mellers, and the baby you see, Mrs. Meller told us that she wouldn't help her at all, you know, around the house.
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Would sit there and smoke and do nothing. Now I have a recollection, a vague recollection of Lee telling me that he didn't get along with his mother. Actually it was surprising how little he spoke about his family. It was just something completely that was not discussed you know.
He didn't talk about it. But I have a vague recollection that he disliked his mother. He didn't get along with his mother, and Marina disliked the mother.
Mr. JENNER. Marina disliked the mother also?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Marina disliked the mother also.
Mr. JENNER. You have a definite recollection of that?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I have a recollection of some kind, not in any exact words, but that is the impression I had.
Mr. JENNER. Was there any discussion or did you become aware that they had lived also with the mother as well as the brother?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I do not recall that.
Mr. JENNER. But you have a definite recollection that Marina had met the mother and had a reaction to her?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; Oh, that she met the mother, definitely. I assumed that you knew.
Mr. JENNER. And that reaction was an unfavorable one?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Unfavorable reaction, and possibly my wife will remember more than I do.
Mr. JENNER. Did you get any reaction as to how Oswald felt with respect to his brother?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Again a vague idea that he did not get along with his brother.
Mr. JENNER. Did you become aware that he had two brothers?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I didn't even know he had two brothers.
Mr. JENNER. Was there any occasion when it came to your attention that there was any alarm on Marina's part with respect to Lee possibly inflicting some harm on Vice President Nixon, or former Vice President Nixon?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. No.
Mr. JENNER. That doesn't ring a bell at all?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. It doesn't ring a bell at all. But what I wanted to underline, that was always amazing to me, that as far as I am concerned he was an admirer of President Kennedy.
Mr. JENNER. I was going to ask you about that.
Tell me the discussions you had in that connection. Did you have some discussions with him?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Just occasional sentences, you know. I think once I mentioned to him that I met Mrs. Kennedy when she was a child you know, she was a very strong-willed child, very intelligent and very attractive child you see, and a very attractive family, and I thought that Kennedy was doing a very good job with regard to the racial problem, you know. We never discussed anything else. And he also agreed with me, "Yes, yes, yes; I think it is an excellent President, young, full of energy, full of good ideas."
Mr. JENNER. Did he ever indicate any resentment of Mr. Kennedy's wealth?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. That is definitely a point there, you know. He did not indicate, but he hated wealth, period, you see. Lee Oswald hated wealth, and I do not recall the exact words, but this is something that you could feel in him, you see. And since he was very poor, you know, I could see why he did, you see. I even would tell him sometimes, "That is ridiculous. Wealth doesn't make happiness and you can be poor and be happy, you can be wealthy and be very unhappy; it doesn't matter." I met a lot of wealthy people in my life and found that quite a few of them are very unhappy and I have met quite a few poor people and they are very happy. So it is nothing to be jealous of.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever discuss with him Governor Connally?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Never discussed it with him.
Mr. JENNER. Did he ever express any opinion with respect to Governor Connally?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Never had a word about it. You see, I was not familiar with the fact that he did have a dishonorable discharge.
Mr. JENNER. That is another subject.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. You were not familiar with that at all? It was never discussed?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. It was only in the papers that I read after the assassination that I read in the papers that he had a dishonorable discharge. I assumed that he had an honorable discharge. I assumed that.
Mr. JENNER. There was never any discussion in the Russian colony on the subject that he had not had an honorable discharge?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I do not recall that. I do not recall. But I was again probing in my mind whether I heard anything about this dishonorable discharge or not.
Mr. JENNER. As you are sitting there, you are probing your mind?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, my mind, thinking about it, now you know, and it is impossible to say because I read in the paper that he had a dishonorable discharge, after the assassination.
Mr. JENNER. And you don't want to rationalize?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I do not want to.
Mr. JENNER. Now let us turn to the party at the Glovers.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. You were acquainted with Mr. Glover, were you?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Everett Glover?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Everett Glover.
Mr. JENNER. Who is Everett Glover?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Everett Glover is a chemist at Magnolia Laboratories, Standard Oil of New York Research Laboratories.
Mr. JENNER. Now, had Everett Glover met the Oswalds prior to this party at his home?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. He might have, I don't recall. He might have met them, either Marina or both of them, for a short time.
Mr. JENNER. Have you exhausted your recollection on that subject?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. My wife may remember this more distinctly.
Mr. JENNER. But have you exhausted your recollection?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I don't recall.
Mr. JENNER. Does this serve to refresh your recollection? Mr. Glover has stated that he had met Marina previously.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. At your home several times?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. It could be; yes.
Mr. JENNER. It could be?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. It could be; yes.
Mr. JENNER. And had been invited to your home several times because she was a Russian-speaking person who was having marital difficulties with Lee Oswald?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Very possible, very possible. Now I recall even this, since you mention this. I suggested that they might live with Everett Glover, this couple.
Mr. JENNER. You made a suggestion?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. To whom?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. To Glover. "You have an empty house. Why don't you let them live with you and pay you so much per month?" And I think he declined that.
Mr. JENNER. He did organize this party, however?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Who? Everett?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Now he says it was on February 23, 19----
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. 1963.
Mr. JENNER. 1963?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. That is about it.
Mr. JENNER. Does that refresh your recollection?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I was placing it around January or February; at that time.
Mr. JENNER. Did you attend that party?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; as far as I remember, I did.
Mr. JENNER. And Jeanne as well?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Who else was there?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. At this party was a lot of friends of Everett Glover's whose names I do not recall.
Mr. JENNER. Volkmar Schmidt?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, yes; definitely. We called him Messer Schmidt. He is a German; very intelligent, young Ph.D. in sociology who also works at the same laboratory as Everett Glover.
Mr. JENNER. Magnolia?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Magnolia Laboratory.
Mr. JENNER. And was living with Glover at that time?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Was living with Glover at the time, I think.
Mr. JENNER. He was present?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. He is a bachelor?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. A bachelor.
Mr. JENNER. And who else?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I think we invited our neighbors, Mrs. Fox who lived right next door to us, to that party.
Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Fox?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. What is her first name?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Mary Fox.
Mr. JENNER. What is her husband's name?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. She is a widow. I think, but it might have been a different party, but I have the impression that she was there.
Mr. JENNER. Anybody else?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I think we invited our landlord also.
Mr. JENNER. Who is your landlord?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I forgot his name. Anyway he is my landlord. I forgot his name. My wife has a better memory of names.
Mr. JENNER. Anybody else that you recall?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. And Ruth Paine.
Mr. JENNER. Ruth Paine?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Had you ever met Ruth Paine before?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I think that was the first time we met Ruth Paine.
Mr. JENNER. You have never been in any singing groups with her?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. No.
Mr. JENNER. Of which she was a member?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. No, no.
Mr. JENNER. You did engage in some singing groups, did you not?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; but a different type of singing. I was engaged only in the church choir singing and I think she engaged in some sort of classical music singing.
Mr. JENNER. Madrigal?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I beg your pardon?
Mr. JENNER. Madrigal?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Madrigal; that is right. There is a group in Dallas to which Everett Glover belongs, you know, who I think spent some time singing in the madrigal.
Mr. JENNER. Have you exhausted your recollection now as to everybody who was present?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. There were quite a lot of people there, but if you mention the names I will say yes or no.
Mr. JENNER. I want you to exhaust your recollection first.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I am not so sure. I think my daughter was there.
Mr. JENNER. Alex?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Alex. I don't remember if Gary was there.
Mr. JENNER. That is her husband?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Her husband. see, we showed our movie quite a few times.
Mr. JENNER. Did you show it that night?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I think we showed the movie that night.
Mr. JENNER. Were Mr. and Mrs. Norman Fredricksen present?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. That name is familiar to me but I couldn't identify them.
Mr. JENNER. Were these people interested in meeting the Oswalds?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I think Oswald mentioned to me---Glover mentioned to me that Mrs. Paine was a student of the Russian language, that she would like to meet somebody with whom she could practice. That is my recollection.
Mr. JENNER. Did the people engage in conversation with both of the Oswalds?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. They were surrounded by the whole group. I do not recall what happened, because I was busy making the description of our trip while the movie was being shown. That movie, by the way, did not interest Oswald at all. He was not interested.
Mr. JENNER. The Mexican trip movie?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. No; he was not interested. Neither Marina nor Oswald were interested.
Mr. JENNER. Neither one?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. No.
Mr. JENNER. Why was that, do you think?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. They were not the outdoor-type people who would appreciate that sort of thing, not. sufficiently outdoor-type people, not sufficiently sophisticated to appreciate that sort of a thing. At least that was my impression.
Mr. JENNER. Did any of these people inquire of Oswald as to his life in Russia?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I think so. I think after the movie there was quite an animated discussion there asking many questions and many answering. He was there very happy you see, because he loved to be asked questions. He. loved to be the center of attention, and he definitely was the center of attention that night.
Mr. JENNER. That night. What about Marina?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, you know that she couldn't speak English.
Mr. JENNER. Yes. There were people there who could speak Russian, weren't there?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I think she was talking mainly to Mrs. Paine, and I noticed immediately that there was another nice relationship developed there between Mrs. Paine and Marina.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have some acquaintance with Mrs. Paine afterward; you and Mrs. De Mohrenschildt?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Never saw them again. Never saw them again as far as I remember. That in my recollection was the only time I saw her. I remember her distinctly because she is a very interesting and attractive person.
Mr. JENNER. Do you remember a Richard Pierce and a Miss Betty MacDonald attending that party?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I remember now Betty MacDonald. I don't remember whether she was at the party but I think she was the librarian at the Magnolia Research Laboratory.
Mr. Pierce is another friend of Everett's who also works at Magnolia, who eventually became his roommate, or maybe he was already a roommate at the time. I think he became a roommate later on.
Mr. JENNER. Is there anything that occurred at that meeting that you think might be significant that you would like to tell us about?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I really do not remember anything significant.
Mr. JENNER. Did you remain throughout the whole evening, or did you leave before the party was over?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I do not recall.
Mr. JENNER. I take it you did not bring the Oswalds to that meeting?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I do not recall either. I think they possibly have come by themselves. Maybe somebody else brought them. Maybe Everett brought them.
Mr. JENNER. Either that or Everett?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; somebody else might have.
Mr. JENNER. It was not your party?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. No.
Mr. JENNER. You assisted him, however, in arranging it?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; exactly.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall anything said at that meeting with respect to their eliciting from Oswald his views with respect to Russia, and in particular the former government in Russia?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I remember quite a vivid discussion going on, you know, because all those people are highly intelligent, and, very intellectual group of people interested in what goes on in the world, and as far as I know none of them has ever seen a Russian, and it was just like a new specimen of humanity, you see, that appeared in front of them, both Marina and Oswald, an American but who had been to Russia. But I don't remember any particular discussion or disagreement or agreement. I think probably Oswald was talking most of the time.
Mr. JENNER. Oswald was pretty proud, was he, of his ability to speak Russian?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. He was proud of it, yes; because it is quite an achievement for a man with a poor scholastic background to have learned the language. It is surprising to me. It was an extraordinary surprise for my wife and myself that he was able to learn to speak it so well for such a short time as he was supposed to have stayed in Russia. As I understand it, he stayed there some 2 years, I gather.
Mr. JENNER. That is all.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. And it is amazing.
Mr. JENNER. In speaking of that, as I recall, you noted he had a conversational command of the language.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. But that he did not speak a refined Russian.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. No, no; not a refined Russian.
Mr. JENNER. He had trouble with his grammar?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, yes.
Mr. JENNER. Were there occasions when you knew them in which Marina would correct his grammar and there would be an altercation between them or something?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Oh, yes; there was bickering all the time. There was bickering all the time. I don't remember whether it was especially on the point of grammar, but there was bickering between them all the time.
But as I said before, the bickering was mainly because Marina smoked and he didn't approve of it, that she liked to drink and he did not approve of it. I think she liked to put the makeup on and he didn't let her use the makeup. My wife will explain a little bit more in detail what was going on between them, you see, because she was a confidante of Marina's, you see. I was not.
Mr. JENNER. Would you elaborate, please?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, my wife being a woman was interested in a woman's problems, you see, Marina's, in the baby and in her makeup, in the way she dressed and the way she behaved, you see. She tried to correct her manners, correct, teach her how to be a human being, you see, which Marina did not know very well. She was doing her best to learn. She wanted to, but she really had a very poor background, you see.
Mr. JENNER. You made a comment that you just said your wife had confidence in Marina, but you didn't. What did you mean by that?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Confidence from what point of view?
Mr. JENNER. I don't know.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I mentioned that because I don't like a woman who bitches at her husband all the time, and she did, you know. She annoyed him. She bickered. She brought the worst out in him. And she told us after they would get a fight, you know, that he was fighting also. She would scratch him also.
Mr. JENNER. She would scratch him?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. She would scratch him also.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall the time?
I will put the question this way in order to draw on your recollection, rather than mine.
There was an occasion, was there not, that Marina left Lee by herself?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Without being taken?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I have a recollection of that.
Mr. JENNER. Tell us about that. When did it occur?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't remember when it occurred.
Mr. JENNER. Does October 1963 refresh your recollection?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Very possible, but that was the period when we were very busy with our cystic fibrosis campaign.
I do recall that one day I was in Fort Worth and I decided to come to see Mrs. Hall, with whom Marina was staying.
Mr. JENNER. Were you aware of the fact that Marina was at Mrs. Hall's?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Were you aware of how she had gotten there?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I do not recall how it happened, but I was aware, somebody told me that, that she was staying at Mrs. Hall's.
Mr. JENNER. The Halls were separated at that time, were they not?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; and Mrs. Hall had the boy friend who was a friend of mine.
Mr. JENNER. What was his name?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. A long name, German name, but he was of Polish extraction. He was in the plastic business. Now, his name, Doctor--he worked for some plastic company in Fort Worth. Kleinlerer, Alex Kleinlerer. That is the name.
Well, I had a very hard time finding the house where Mrs. Hall lived. I think Mr. Clark told me. That is probably it.
Mr. JENNER. Max Clark.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Max Clark probably told me that Marina is there.
Mr. JENNER. Is that 4760 Trail Lake Drive?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; Trail Lake Drive. That is the place. And I drove over and here was Marina, Mrs. Hall and Alex Kleinlerer. I don't remember what we were talking about, what we discussed at that time. It was a friendly visit to say how are you.
Mr. JENNER. What I was getting at, Mr. De Mohrenschildt, was that this was an occasion when Marina had left her husband?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And come to the Halls?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. That is, it is an occasion distinct from the one in which you took Marina?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Oh, yes.
Mr. JENNER. Away from her husband. And this occasion we are now talking about at the Halls occurred subsequently to the time that you had taken her to the Mellers?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. I think it was after our taking her away to the Mellers.
Mr. JENNER. When you arrived there, what did you discuss in respect to why Marina was there?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I think I was discussing, I was talking to Alex Kleinlerer and to Mrs. Hall.
Yes; something vaguely comes to my mind that Mrs. Hall was saying that Marina should leave their place.
Mr. JENNER. Should leave the Halls?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Should leave the Halls. The husband is coming back or something like that, something to that effect.
Mr. JENNER. Her husband is returning?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; something to that effect.
Mr. JENNER. And did Marina leave?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. That I do not recall.
Mr. JENNER. You don't recall that she then went somewhere else?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I do not recall. If you could refresh my memory I may remember better. Again, I want to underline that all this is history for me, you see.
Mr. JENNER. I appreciate that, and I must avoid trying to put things in your mind also.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Which is what I am attempting to do.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. As I remember, take Mrs. Hall--yes; I remember what we were talking about. Mrs. Hall had had an accident, and she had either a broken leg or a broken arm, something like that, and she was in a cast. That is it. So we were talking about the accident most of the time, you see, what happened.
Mr. JENNER. Well, that is a fact.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; she had an accident. I remember now.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have any discussion or do you have any opinion with respect to Marina's religious belief, whether she had any, any religious feeling?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I had a vague impression--I don't remember because I do not discuss religion too often--that she had religious beliefs of some sort, you see. She was a Greek Orthodox and did have some sort of religious belief.
Mr. JENNER. What about Lee, on the other hand?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Lee, I think religion did not exist for him.
Mr. JENNER. He didn't believe in God?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. God, I don't know, because I didn't ask him a straight forward question, but I know that he did not believe in any organized religion. That is for sure. But he never was militantly against religion as far as I remember.
Mr. JENNER. But you have no recollection of any discussions or any impression on your part about Marina going back to Russia at any time?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Something vaguely goes on in my head.
Mr. JENNER. Oswald trying to get her to return to Russia?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Something vaguely goes on in my mind, but I do not recall. Very possible, you see, that something was mentioned like that. I didn't pay any attention, in other words.
Mr. JENNER. Did Oswald express views with respect to individual liberty and freedom of the press?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't think he understood the freedom of the press, and individual liberties. I think he was too stupid to understand the advantages we have of the free press and the free speech. Not too stupid, I mean, but too uneducated to understand the great advantages we have in free press and free discussion and in individual freedoms.
Like many native-born Americans, he did not appreciate the advantages you get in this country, you see. You have to be a foreigner to appreciate it a little bit more. Many Russians, all the Russian refugees appreciate that, you see, but many who are born here don't appreciate it. Not all of them.
Mr. JENNER. What about Marina and her politics?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Marina was definitely more appreciative of life in the United States.
Mr. JENNER. Was she inclined to discuss politics?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Not too much; no. That was Lee's main point, you see, to discuss politics.
Mr. JENNER. What was her attitude toward Lee's views in that respect?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. She more or less considered him a crackpot, as far as I remember, you see. A few times she said, "Oh, that crazy lunatic. Again he is talking about politics."
This is one of the reasons we liked her, because that was a very intelligent attitude, you see, but it was very annoying to Lee.
Mr. JENNER. That was another source of annoyance between them?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; there were so many sources of annoyance, as you know, that it was just an unhappy marriage.
Mr. JENNER. You have stated at one time Oswald gave you something to read that he had written.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I don't remember at what particular time, but he gave me to read his typewritten memoirs of his stay in Minsk.
Mr. JENNER. Was it in the form of a diary?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, more or less the form of a diary, not day by day, but just impressions. And as far as I remember, I read through these typewritten pages, I don't remember how many of them there were, and made comments on it, you see. But I don't think they were fit for publication.
Mr. JENNER. Were they political in nature?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. No; not political in nature, but there was nothing particularly interesting to an average person to read. It was just a description of life in a factory in Minsk. Not terribly badly written, not particularly well.
Mr. JENNER. Not good, not bad?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Not good, not bad. Nothing that I really remember too well. I don't remember too well what was written there.
Mr. JENNER. I will show the witness pages 220 through 244, Commission Document No. 206. Would you glance through those pages and tell me if it has the material he showed you?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I don't remember seeing that beginning.
Mr. JENNER. Let's get over to the area in Minsk.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. No; that is not at all familiar to me.
Mr. JENNER. The witness is now looking at page 232.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Starting here at the bottom of page 232 it looks familiar to me. How many mistakes he makes here, it is terrible. It does not look familiar to me. I think it was something else that he showed me. I do not recall that. That I definitely do not remember.
Mr. JENNER. What?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I would have remembered that sentence, you know.
Mr. JENNER. You are now on page 235:
"I am having a light affair with Nell Korobka."
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I would have remembered something like that, you see. Again another sentence I do not recall.
Mr. JENNER. "My conquest of Anna Tachina, a girl from Riga."
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Do you want me to glance through that? It does not look like the same document.
Mr. JENNER. If it is not the same document
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I don't think it is the same document.
Mr. JENNER. Now I will have the witness look at pages 247 through 301. This is a composition entitled "The Collective" and "Minsk, Russia," with a foreword, an autobiographical sketch of Oswald.
I will direct your attention to some of these headings, "Description of Radio Factory," "Quota Conditions," "Description of TV Shop," "Background of Shops," "Individual Workers," "Controls of Collectives," "Demonstrations in Meetings," "Factory Makeup," and "Peoples," "Layout of City of Minsk," "Tourist Permits and Tourist Passports," "Collective Farms and Schools, Vacations."
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I don't remember this document, but I think I remember something, "Layout of City of Minsk," because that would have attracted my attention.
Mr. JENNER. All right, let's find that spot.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. That looks familiar to me.
Mr. JENNER. First there is a heading, "About the Author." I call your attention to a statement which says, "Exotic journeys on his part to Japan and the Philippines and the scores of odd islands in the Pacific." Did he ever discuss that with you?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. No.
Mr. JENNER. He was at Subic Bay in the Philippines?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I don't remember him mentioning that to me.
Mr. JENNER. Now the witness is looking at part 1, which is on page 248.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; this looks slightly, vaguely familiar, starting from page 248. That looks vaguely familiar. I am not going to read all this because it looks very boring to me. I mean it is something that doesn't interest me. It looks vaguely familiar.
Mr. JENNER. Does it also refresh your recollection of discussions you had with him before his life in Russia?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. That looks familiar to me.
Mr. JENNER. This whole division?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. This whole division looks familiar to me. As I said before, I did not look carefully when I originally saw this document, and I think this is the same one, because it looks familiar to me.
I just glanced through. I realized that it is not fit for publication. You can see it right away. Who is interested to read about comrade this and comrade that, you see?
But it is a factual, it seems like a factual report on his conditions of life of a worker.
Mr. JENNER. It is horrible grammar.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Horrible grammar.
Mr. JENNER. And horrible spelling.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. But it could be reworked by somebody?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. Let's get to the next division here.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Here is something that I remember we discussed.
Mr. JENNER. You are now at page 262.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I think here he talks about those meetings.
Mr. JENNER. That he did not like?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. That he did not like. Do I have to read that? Frankly, it is very----
Mr. JENNER. No; you don't. We are trying to find out whether this is the paper he showed you.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Here is something.
Mr. JENNER. I now direct your attention to page 269.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. This is something that is much more familiar to me because I was interested in the town itself.
Mr. JENNER. And this is the paragraph beginning, "The reconstruction of Minsk is on an interesting story reflecting the courage of its builders."
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; that was something that interested me because I lived in my childhood in this town and I remembered some of the buildings. I remember asking Oswald about what happened to this street and that street, you see. But I forgot the names. I just described them. What happened to this street and that street?
He gave me some sort of an answer that now it is full of big buildings, you see, and I remember it as being full of small provincial houses, you see. And again I cannot swear to the fact that that is the same paper I saw.
Mr. JENNER. But this seems to you more familiar?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. More familiar maybe because I paid more attention to the city than I paid to something else.
Mr. JENNER. This is quite a long diatribe.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. It couldn't be the same document because that wasn't as long as that.
Mr. JENNER. It was not?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. No.
Mr. JENNER. I now exhibit to the witness a series of five untitled compositions on political subjects appearing in the same exhibit I have already identified, the first of which is at page 304.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. This is definitely not familiar to me.
Mr. JENNER. And runs through page 309.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I am just glancing through but it doesn't look familiar to me. Maybe I just didn't pay any attention.
Mr. JENNER. The next commences on page 310 and runs through to page 312. It is a short one.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. No; that doesn't look familiar to me.
Mr. JENNER. The next commences at page 313 and concludes at page 315.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. It does not look familiar to me. As I said before, I have the impression that the pages he showed me were only about the city of Minsk and the TV factory there, but not about his life.
Mr. JENNER. Were they typewritten or in longhand?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Typewritten.
Mr. JENNER. The balance is on pages 318 through 329. Would you glance through those, please?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Oh, that is definitely nothing that I have seen before, because it has the name of General Walker in it.
Mr. JENNER. And you had not seen it?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I had not seen it. Now, the publication, not the publication, the document I saw was, as far as I remember, not political, but a very simple account of his life in Minsk, and in the TV factory.
Mr. JENNER. I think we had better call Mrs. De Mohrenschildt and tell her----
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. That she is ready for action?
Mr. JENNER. No; that we are going to run you well into the afternoon. I have got a couple more pages of notes here. Maybe around 3:30 will be closer.
If you think it would be better to release her for the afternoon or find out where she is going to be.(Whereupon, at 12:55 p.m., the proceeding was recessed.)
Testimony Of George S. De Mohrenschildt Resumed
The proceeding was reconvened at 2 p.m.
Mr. JENNER. As I recall, yesterday you testified your recollection was that early in your acquaintance with the Oswalds, you approached Sam Ballen to see if he could undertake or might be able to employ Oswald.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. To refresh your recollection in that regard, Mr. Ballen says his recollection is that he first met Lee in December 1962 or January 1963 at your home.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. It could be.
Mr. JENNER. And he was aware that you had approached Mr. Ballen's wife and other people to assist the Oswalds, and also to have them out socially.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. You did do that, did you?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, I don't remember whether I asked the Ballens to invite them, but I did ask some other people to invite them, because they were so lonesome. And maybe fortunately for them, they refused.
I remember I asked a physicist to invite them in Dallas, and they just refused. He said, "I don't know those people. I don't want to have anything to do with them."
Mr. JENNER. His recollection is about 10 days after he met them at your home, you called him and asked if he might be able to employ him, or might be helpful in his obtaining a job.
Does that stimulate your recollection that the events you mentioned yesterday occurred probably in December 1962 or January 1963--that is, the event regarding your effort to induce Mr. Ballen?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes--it should be probably at that time, because I had the impression that it was earlier than that--when he was moving from Fort Worth to Dallas, at the very beginning. I still have the impression. Because that is where I was interested, to help them, you see.
I did not know that he lost his job with the other company. I didn't know that.
All this is later, after we had already gone.
So I have the impression that maybe he confused the time. It seems to me that I asked him at the very beginning when I met the Oswalds, when he lost his first job in Fort Worth and was trying to move to Dallas--that was the time.
Mr. JENNER. He lost his job at Leslie Welding Co.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. I don't know the name of that company, but it was some welding outfit.
Mr. JENNER. Sheetmetal work.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, that is right.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall the period when Marina stayed at the Fords, in November?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. When she stayed at the Fords?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. That was the time when we took Marina and the child away from Lee and put her in the house of Mellers, and then the Mellers asked Mrs. Ford to take her. I think that was the time.
And then, later on, the Fords asked Mrs. Ray to take Marina. She moved from one place to another--three times, as far as I remember, she changed domiciles.
And finally returned to Lee.
Mr. JENNER. You remember this event you related yesterday, when you took Marina from the home?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. As having occurred.----
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. In September.
I have the impression it was in September. But it is, again, only a recollection, because I remember that it was a very hot day-- very sunny, hot day. So it could be in October. And also in October we started working on this campaign, cystic fibrosis campaign, and were very busy. But it might have been in October.
Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Ford's recollection is that Marina was at her home--she came there on November 11, and left on November 17.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. It could be that.
Mr. JENNER. And this is while Marina was separated temporarily from her husband?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. Unless she had been twice at her home. I think she was only once at her home. There were three homes--once at Mellers, the Fords, and the third at the Rays, one after another, in succession.
Mr. JENNER. Now, this is apparently part of that series of changes she made when she left, herself--that is, this was not an occasion when you took her?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I think that is the occasion we took her--we took her to the Mellers, and then she moved from them by herself--that we had no knowledge of. How she moved or who took her from one house to another, I do not know.
Mr. JENNER. You have a recollection there were two periods---one period that you are talking about when you took her from the home, and then, another period when she left the home, herself?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. That could be, very easily. But then it would fit very well in my schedule that would have been the second time because, at that time, we were not seeing the Oswalds. We were busy on something else, Jeanne was working both in the store and at the foundation, I was preparing my project, and we were very busy, and didn't see anybody, practically, and especially the Oswalds.
October, November; I don't think we saw them at all in October, November, December.
Mr. JENNER. Did I ask you about Betty MacDonald this morning, as to whether she was at that February 1963 party?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Oh, yes; I think that is the librarian. The name MacDonald sounds familiar to me. Is she Pierce's fiance? That is how I remember her.
Mr. JENNER. I am just trying to get these two events. Marina recalls when they lived on Elsbeth Street she had a dispute with Lee, and--about her Russian friends, in which he said, "Well, if you like your friends so much, then go ahead and live with them."
And she said that left her no choice, so she got in a cab and went over to Anna Meller's house with the baby.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Oh, that is how she described it.
Mr. JENNER. She was there a week.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. That was the second time? What month was it?
Mr. JENNER. I don't know.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, we took her there. But maybe she went there for the second time, you see.
Mr. JENNER. Well, she may have forgotten you took her.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; maybe she forgot it. You know, we took all the furniture also. I could not forget that--because my car was loaded. You could practically feel the gound. I still have the same car in Haiti today.
We had a tremendous load in our car. It took us the whole day to load and unload and carry them.
Mr. JENNER. Now, she voiced the opinion that--she said Lee liked you.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I am sorry that he did, but, obviously he did.
Mr. JENNER. She said because you were a strong person. She is expressing her opinion now, of course. But he only liked you among all this group. He disliked Bouhe, he disliked Anna Meller.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. That I am surprised, because Bouhe is very--a person that you can like or dislike immediately. As to Mrs. Meller, I am surprised, because she is very kind and a nice person.
Mr. JENNER. Well, this is Lee Oswald. That could possibly arise out of the fact that Anna Meller befriended her when she left the household.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. I don't know what the reason was.
But you have confirmed the fact that he didn't care for the people in the Russian colony.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. He did not have any friends, you see. Maybe he identified me not as a Russian, because I have not much Russian blood in me anyway. Maybe he identified me as some sort of an internationalist, American.
Mr. JENNER. Maybe you are.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I am trying to think of other friends that he had. I cannot recall, myself, a friend of his, actually. I could not say that. He could be my son in age, you see. He is just a kid for me, with whom I played around. Sometimes I was curious to see what went on in his head.
But I certainly would not call myself a friend of his.
Mr. JENNER. Well, that may well be.
But Marina, at least, expresses herself that way--that you "were the only one who remained our friend."
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. She said we were the only ones----
Mr. JENNER. Who remained their friends--the others sort of removed themselves.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Sure, we left, you know. We were no friends, nothing. We just were too busy to be with them-- period.
Mr. JENNER. I am not talking about you. I am talking about the other people now.
As you related this morning, they began to withdraw.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; and we were too busy. We saw them--we withdrew also to an extent--you see what I mean. We saw a lot of them at the beginning, and then we stopped seeing them. Then we saw them again for Christmas and invited them to another party, and that is all.
Then we saw them the last time for Easter.
I am not defending myself for having seen them. But that is a fact.
Mr. JENNER. Well, I appreciate that.
What was your impression as to whether this was a hospitable man?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Who, Oswald?
Mr. JENNER. Oswald. Was he a man who was not very hospitable?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I would not say so. To us, he was always quite hospitable.
Mr. JENNER. To you, I appreciate that. I am trying to find out----
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. About the others, I don't know, because I never saw anybody else there in the house.
I don't know how he would receive the people. I think he responded by kindness with kindness. He was responsive to kindness.
Mr. JENNER. Was there an impression among the people in this--we have talked about, that they came to feel that he didn't care for them?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Oh, yes, yes; he didn't care for them because---well, let me put it this way.
He didn't care for them because they didn't care for him, and vice versa.
But you see most of the colony in Dallas is more emotionally involved in Russian affairs than we are, because they are closer to them. All of them have been relatively recently in Soviet Russia--while my wife has never been in Soviet Russia in her life, and I was 5 or 6 when I left it. So to me it doesn't mean very much.
I am curious, but it doesn't mean anything--it is too far removed.
Mr. JENNER. Did he ever express any views to you or give you the impression that he thought these people who had left Russia were fools for having left Russia?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I don't think so. I don't remember that. Possibly he told somebody else. But not in my presence.
Mr. JENNER. Did he express any view to you or did you get the impression that these people in this colony or group, they only liked money, and everything was measured by money?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, naturally--he didn't tell that to me, but you can guess that that would be his opinion, because he was jealous of them. I tried to induce him a few times to get on to some money-making scheme. I said, "Why don't you do something to make money?"
But, obviously, it wasn't interesting to him.
Would you like me to say what I told you about this Solidarist?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. You were interested--you asked me if I belonged to some political party, and I said no. This group of Russian refugees called themselves solidarists. And Mr. and Mrs. Voshinin in Dallas belonged to that group and tried to make me join it. Not being interested, I refused, but I read some of their publications. And it is a pro-American group of Russian refugees who have an economic doctrine of their own. And they seem to have some people working in the Soviet Union for them, and all that sort of thing.
It is a pretty well-known political party that--their headquarters is in Germany.
That is about all I know about them.
Mr. JENNER. But that group didn't interest you?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. No, no; nor any other group.
Mr. JENNER. I notice in the papers at my disposal some participation on your part in a foreign council discussion group in Dallas.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I belonged to that group--I don't remember during what period--and came quite often to the meetings.
Mr. JENNER. What is the name of it?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. The Dallas Council of World Affairs. I met quite a few people at the meetings. But they were open, public meetings, where international affairs were discussed. I remember several of the Dallas real conservatives called that Dallas council very leftist. But I never noticed anything in particular.
Mr. JENNER. Were there people of substance that participated in that group?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; very much so. Mr. Marcus was the president of it. Mr. McGee was the president of it.
Mr. Mallon was president of that, and actually organized this group. Mr. Mallon is chairman of the board of Dresser Industries. But they invited some people to Dallas who are possibly socialists--I don't remember seeing anyone, but I guess they might have invited them.
Mr. JENNER. Did you on any occasion to express a view or say to anybody in Dallas among your friends that Oswald was an idealistic Marxist?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I might have said that.
Mr. JENNER. What did you mean by that?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. That he had read and created some sort of a theory, a Marxist theory, for himself.
In other words, he created a doctrine for himself, a Marxist doctrine.
Mr. JENNER. Is that what you meant by use of the word "Idealist"?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; that it was an idea in his head that he had--not in a very flattering way I meant that. That he was building up a doctrine in his head.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever say anything to anybody on the subject that Oswald was opposed to the United States policy on Castro in Cuba?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. That I think he mentioned to me a couple of times.
Mr. JENNER. What did he say?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I do not remember the exact wording, but he said that he had admiration for Castro for opposing such a big power as the United States.
Mr. JENNER. Did the Voshinins ever ask you not to bring the Oswalds to their house?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. They refused to see and to meet the Oswalds, either one of them. And I was quite surprised, frankly, why they didn't, because we all did and at first helped them--and they usually were very cooperative in helping the other people. In this particular case, they completely refused and looked sort of mysterious--why they didn't want to meet them.
I never asked any questions. But that is their privilege, not to see them.
Mr. JENNER. Do you remember the days you were in Abilene?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall having discussed politics there, in which you indicated, whether in provocation or otherwise, some admiration for the Soviet system of government?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I don't remember saying anything like that.
It might have been misinterpreted. But I believe in peaceful coexistence.
I think we can all live together without blowing each other to hell--and many other people believe that we couldn't do that. Probably the person with whom I was discussing it believed in immediate atomic retaliation. So, naturally, I told him what the hell.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall having said that if this country is ever invaded by Russia, you would have a very good chance of coming into a top position with the Russians if they invaded the United States?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I never said that. That is a purely Texas invention. It must have been a real enemy of mine who said that.
Mr. JENNER. You are intellectually opposed to the Communist system?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I am. I am not interested in it--period.
Mr. JENNER. You wrote--I don't know whether it was after your 8 or 9 months in Mexico, when you were enamoured of Lilia Larin, or whether it was on this previous occasion--when you were at the University of Texas, had you written or were you writing a manuscript entitled "Experiences of a Young Man in Mexico"?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, yes; but that is more or less a romantic dissertation, a romantic book based on some of my experiences there.
Mr. JENNER. Did you relate some of your romantic experiences?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, is it absolutely necessary? I don't recall even what I had written there.
Mr. JENNER. I just wanted the general nature of it.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't recall what it is. It is probably based on the travel in Mexico with some girls--that is about all. That is what I would write at that time and that age.
Mr. JENNER. You were interested in girls?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, at that time.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever have any people refer to you as the Mad Russian?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. That is an unfortunate term they call me quite often.
Mr. JENNER. You mentioned somebody from Brazil that had the sobriquet of King of Bananas. Was that the King of Orchids rather than the King of Bananas?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, maybe. But we called him the King of Bananas. At least I called him that.
I remember his name now--I mentioned it to you. Dr. Decio de Paulo Machado. I still--I think he is still in existence, because I asked about him recently.
Mr. JENNER. If I said you were an extrovert, would that agree with your own judgment of yourself?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, I don't know if it is for others to call me. I would rather be an extrovert than an introvert.
Mr. JENNER. Well, for example, I regard myself as an extrovert.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Then I am happy to be an extrovert. I don't like to be accused of being too much of an extrovert, because I think if you pass the limit it is too much.
Mr. JENNER. Of course. Any extreme is bad. I made a reference yesterday to Professor Zitkoff, in Houston. I thought that might stimulate your recollection. Did you make regular trips to Houston?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; quite often.
Mr. JENNER. Were they substantially regular--once a month?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. No, no. Without regularity, but quite often--mainly to see my clients there.
Mr. JENNER. And your clients were who?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. In the oil business--I mainly used to come to see my friend John Jacobs, vice president of Texas Eastern, and the social acquaintances that I had there--Andy Todd, an architect there, a professor at Rice Institute. And maybe somebody else I don't recall the name.
Mr. JENNER. But these trips to Houston were strictly business?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. Maybe I was trying at the time to push forward my project in Haiti, you see, whereby I was trying to raise some money for the development of small industries in Haiti. And on that occasion I saw quite a few important people. But purely for that purpose--purely for business.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Is your daughter, Alexandria, a painter or an artist?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. No; my wife's daughter is a painter.
Mr. JENNER. Christiana?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Was there a time when both Christiana and your daughter were living in Dallas with you?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, indeed.
Mr. JENNER. In your 1957 venture with the International Cooperation--as an agent of the International Cooperation Administration, in addition to Poland, as I understand it, you visited France?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Switzerland?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. No. Sweden and Denmark.
Mr. JENNER. France, Sweden and Denmark?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Had you in mind, or did you hope during that period, that you would also visit Switzerland, England, Italy, and West Germany?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; but I didn't see those countries--I didn't have time to see them. Instead of that, I stayed much longer in Sweden, visiting some distant relatives there.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have any political discussions with any so-called true Communists when you were in Yugoslavia?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Political discussions?
Mr. JENNER. Arguments?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Arguments; yes. Discussions, occasionally. The real argument I had--I think maybe I mentioned it yesterday--was with the head of the Communist Party in Slovenia, who attacked me very strongly for being an American and for the fact that we had this Arkansas case, with Governor Faubus. He was very obnoxious, and I told him that he reminded me of an ultraconservative in the United States--they were both of the same type, very illogical and very biased in their opinions.
Mr. JENNER. Biased and rigid?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; but I think in my stay in Yugoslavia, and without taking too much pride in it, I made more friends for the United States than anybody else, because they could--I could explain to them the opportunities given to foreign born in the United States, and how joyful the life is in the States. For instance, I used to explain to them how an independent can drill an oil well with no money. To them it was beyond comprehension. To them it was a miracle that a man like me was able to promote enough money to drill an oil well. For them, it needed endless bureaucracy and enormous amount of papers and all that, and finally the well was drilled, and at an enormous price when it could have been done very cheaply by purely organizing a small syndicate. And since I had small production of my own, I explained to them how I did that. And it was a fascinating story for them. So I think I did a good job and made a lot of friends, who used to write to me from there.
Mr. JENNER. Did you make a trip to Europe in 1960? At that time, did you plan to leave early in March, March 11, and visit France, Yugoslavia, England, and Belgium, for a period of 3 weeks, on geological visits?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. There might have been some projects to do that, and it did not materialize.
Mr. JENNER. Maybe this will stimulate you. You, at that time, were at the Statler Hilton Hotel in Washington, D.C.?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. In 1960?
Mr. JENNER. March 10, as a matter of fact. Do you remember your Passport being renewed on March 11?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Did I go to Europe or not? I don't remember. Maybe I went to Ghana at that time, in 1960 instead of going to Belgium--I went on this consulting job to Ghana.
I don't recall. My wife will recall all that precisely, because she remembers the dates.
I did go to Europe in 1960, because I remember I went to see my little boy in Philadelphia at that time before going to Europe. I was planning to. But my wife will remember all that.
Mr. JENNER. So we can identify you as far as these papers are concerned, is this a fair description of you? That you are a white male, 6'1" tall, brown hair--dark brown hair, blue eyes--do you have a scar on your face?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. This scar is an old scar on the right-hand side, I think you can see.
Mr. JENNER. Right-hand cheek?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. On the cheek--it comes from a dog bite in my childhood. And this one is a new one I got it in Yugoslavia.
Mr. JENNER. That is about the center of your forehead, up top, near your hairline?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. You suffered that in Yugoslavia?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I fell down on a rock with my head--had a few stitches taken.
Mr. JENNER. And your----
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. By the way, I may say--my wife reminded me of it today--regarding the fact that I was taking sketches of so-called Coast Guard in Texas, in 1940 or 1941--of course, which I was not doing, because I was sketching the beach. The same thing happened to me in Yugoslavia, except that this time they were the Communists who thought I was making sketches of their fortifications. Actually, I was also making drawings of the seashore. And this time they shot at us.
Mr. JENNER. Shot?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Shot. And they told me to get away--we were in a little boat. And they kept on shooting at me. And the bullets were hitting the water right around us--until we were away out into the sea. So I made a complaint to the U.S. Embassy in Belgrade, and some kind of an investigation was made. But this is an interesting correlation--that I am accused both by the Yugoslavs and here, also, making sketches. I should abandon making sketches in the future. No more painting.
Mr. JENNER. You have a ruddy complexion, but also you have a dark skin.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Is that a pigmentation, or from being out in the sun?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I spend a lot of time in the sun.
Mr. JENNER. Your brother Dimitri is a naturalized American citizen, is he not?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; much earlier than myself, because I think he came to this country in the early twenties.
Mr. JENNER. The records show he was naturalized November 22, 1926, in the U.S. district court at New Haven, which is where Yale University is located.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. He went to school at that time, to Yale.
Mr. JENNER. Do those facts square with your recollection?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; approximately the right period. I remember he went to Yale with Rudy Vallee---they were roommates.
Mr. JENNER. You mentioned that your brother came over to Europe and was in Belgium while you were still there, just before you came back to this country.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. No, no; before I came back for the first time to this country.
Mr. JENNER. That is correct.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. Because it is my brother who helped me to arrange my passport and my entrance. He didn't help me financially, but arranged my permit.
Mr. JENNER. To refresh your recollection, the passport records indicate that your brother applied for a passport for a visit in 1936, to visit Poland and France for 3 months, and for the purpose of visiting his family, and collecting material for magazine articles.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Does that square with your recollection?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. That is about the right time when I first saw him after many, many years--we took a trip together to see our father in Poland.
Mr. JENNER. Now, at that time, he had already completed his work at Yale, had he not?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. He obtained his degree at Yale in 1926?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. I don't know what year he completed.
Mr. JENNER. Did he take some additional----
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. He took a Ph.D. at Columbia. But I don't know what year he received his Ph.D.
Mr. JENNER. Well, I would suggest to you it was 1927.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Ph.D. at Columbia? I don't know the year exactly.
Mr. JENNER. Your brother travels relatively frequently, does he not?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; he travels whenever he had--whenever he can get away from teaching.
Mr. JENNER. And he is a Ph.D. and a professor at Dartmouth College?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. He is a full professor at Dartmouth College.
Mr. JENNER. Hanover, N.H.?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. He also is editor of the Russian Review, a magazine.
Mr. JENNER. Didn't he found that?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; he founded that magazine.
Mr. JENNER. And what does he teach at Dartmouth?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I think he is a professor of Russian culture, Russian civilization, history.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall--is this a description of him: He is a white male, 5 foot 11 inches tall, gray hair, brown eyes?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; very strong brown eyes, very dark brown eyes.
Mr. JENNER. Unlike yours that are blue?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. He is browneyed.
Mr. JENNER. Did you see your brother when he visited Europe in 1957?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; an amazing thing happened. You know, he didn't know that we were in Europe.
Mr. JENNER. Neither knew that the other was?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Neither knew. And we bumped into each other in the most crowded street in Paris. It is an amazing coincidence.
Mr. JENNER. Does your brother have a mustache?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. He used to. I don't think he has now. He may have grown it lately.
Mr. JENNER. Your daughter Alexandria has another given name, hasn't she--- Romeyn?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. That is a family name of the Piersons.
Mr. JENNER. She was born April 17--December 25, 1943. We brought that out yesterday.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Christmas Day.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever know your wife Phyllis' parents, Simone Fleischer--Simone Fleischer Washington and Jack Stecker?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I didn't know her real father. But I met her stepfather--Walter Washington Stecker.
Mr. JENNER. She was the daughter of Simone Fleischer, and was adopted by Walter Washington?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have any contact with the Dominican Embassy in 1958?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. In 1958, Dominican Embassy?
Mr. JENNER. The month of April.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. I think I was invited to--Dominican Embassy. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Here in Washington?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. I was trying to work up some kind of concession, I think. I was working on some kind of oil deal, and tried to contact the Dominican Ambassador--purely for business reasons--some kind of an oil project which had to do with the Dominican Republic.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Have you been in the Dominican Republic in the last--let's say the last 6 months?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I was there several times. No. 1, in March 1963, on my way to Haiti, to sign a contract with the Haitian Government, but spent only one night at the hotel there, between planes. It was necessary to stop there, because there was no right connection. Pan American arranged so that the passengers to Haiti would stop in the Dominican Republic for the night, and then leave the next morning.
Mr. JENNER. Is that the first time you were ever in the Dominican Republic?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. That is the first time I have ever been there.
Mr. JENNER. When next were you there?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. The next time we were with--let's see--yes; we were--my wife and I when we were coming to Haiti, exactly on the same--in the same the same occasion, to spend the night.
Mr. JENNER. Just spent overnight?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Overnight, and take the plane the next morning, on our way to Haiti in June--I think the first or second of June in 1963. And then just recently, about a week ago, when I went to check on some mining possibilities, and get some information from the Bureau of Mines in the Dominican Republic. And again I went to San Juan, and then picked up my wife, and then brought her back into the Dominican Republic, finished getting the information, and returned to Haiti. And then again on the way to the United States now, just stopping there.
Mr. JENNER. On this present trip?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; just stopping for 20 minutes.
Mr. JENNER. Those have been your sole contacts in the Dominican Republic?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; to the best of my memory--yes; I remember now why I tried to contact the Dominican Embassy in 1957. Somebody told me I don't remember who--that they needed a consulting geologist in the Dominican Republic, and I tried to contact the ambassador, and never was able to see him.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall commenting, along with Mrs. De Mohrenschildt, that you know of no connection that did or could have existed between Lee Oswald and any organization or government because you thought nobody could stand him, and that you questioned his mental stability?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. I remember making that statement. I think it was in Port au Prince that I made that statement.
Naturally anybody--who would--in our opinion, if he killed the President of the United States, he must have been mentally unstable. I could not find any other explanation. Or somebody might have paid him for it. But this is another speculation that came to me later on. But, again, it is purely speculation on our part.
Mr. JENNER. Well, you had no--now that you have made that statement, I have to pursue it.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. By reading the papers, you know--we had no other information.. By reading the papers and putting two and two together we started wondering, maybe there is something behind it, you see---especially I remember reading in one of the papers that----
Mr. JENNER. Which papers are these--foreign language papers?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. No; American papers. We haven't read any foreign language papers. We get the Miami Herald, New York Times, we get Haitian papers, French language papers, of course. And I think in one of those papers it was said that Lee Oswald mentioned to his wife before the assassination that he was going to get some money.
Mr. JENNER. So when you read that article----
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. When I read that article, then the idea started coming--arising in my imagination.
Mr. JENNER. Assuming the article was correct, that Oswald had said to Marina that he was going to get some money from some source?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; that is right.
Mr. JENNER. But you knew of no such thing?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. No.
Mr. JENNER. And you had no hint of it while you knew the Oswalds?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. No; when we knew the Oswalds, they were always in dismal poverty.
Mr. JENNER. When you visited Dallas at the end of May 1963, before you went to Haiti, did you see the Oswalds then?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I don't think so. My wife will tell you exactly. I don't think we had time to see anybody. We were just packing. As I recall it, I did receive a card, a postcard, from Oswald--I don't remember when--before we left the United States, saying, "We are in New Orleans," and giving the address. And I lost that card.
Mr. JENNER. Did you write a letter to Mrs. Hugh D. Auchincloss in December of 1963?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I don't remember the date, but I did write a letter to her.
Mr. JENNER. From where?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. From Haiti.
Mr. JENNER. You expressed your sympathy to her with respect to the death of her son-in-law, John Fitzgerald Kennedy?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall making this statement in the letter: "Since we lived in Dallas permanently last year and before, we had the misfortune to have met Oswald, and especially his wife Marina, sometime last fall."
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. What do you mean by the misfortune to have met Oswald and especially his wife Marina?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, now, since all this happened, it causes--it is not pleasant to have known the possible assassin of the President of the United States. And since he is dead, it doesn't matter. But we still know Marina. We had the misfortune of knowing her--it caused us no end of difficulty, from every point of view.
Mr. JENNER. That is what you meant by misfortune?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; and misfortune also now, when you look the situation over, it was just a misfortune that we helped them, that is all. We shouldn't have done it. We should have known better. And, actually----
Mr. JENNER. Why should you have known better, Mr. De Mohrenschildt? What was wrong with what you did?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Nothing wrong. But it is wrong that we were charitable to a person who turned out to be an assassin, maybe.
Mr. JENNER. But you wouldn't have been charitable if you had any notion he might have been. So what you did was a spontaneous, normal thing of an outgoing person who wanted to help somebody. Is that a fair statement?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; it is correct. But still I regret that I have known him. I shouldn't have been so extroverted.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall saying in your letter, "Both my wife and I tried to help poor Marina, who could not speak any English, was mistreated by her husband. She and the baby were malnourished and sickly."
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. That is all correct?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And you told me all about that in some detail.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. You also said, if you will recall--"some time last fall we heard that Oswald had beaten his wife cruelly, so we drove to their miserable place and forcibly took Marina and the child away from the character."
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. And you have told me about that?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. "Then he threatened me and my wife, but I did not take him seriously."
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. That is exactly right.
Mr. JENNER. "Marina stayed with a family of some childless Russian refugees for awhile, keeping her baby, but finally decided to return to her husband." You have told me about that course of events.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. And that is what you had in mind?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. That is exactly right.
Mr. JENNER. Then you comment, "It is really a shame that such crimes occur in our times and in our country, but there is so much jealousy for success, and the late President was successful in so many domains, and there is so much desire for publicity on the part of all shady characters, that assassinations are bound to occur. Better precautions should have been taken." Now, let me ask you about the first two sentences.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. In my opinion, if Lee Oswald did kill the President, this might be the reason for it, that he was insanely jealous of an extraordinarily successful man, who was young, attractive, had a beautiful wife, had all the money in the world, and was a world figure. And poor Oswald was just the opposite. He had nothing. He had a bitchy wife, had no money, was a miserable failure in everything he did.
Mr. JENNER. Well, do you have a view, perhaps, that this might be a way of this man--of what he thought of raising himself up by his own bootstraps?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Exactly. It made him a hero in his own mind--it made him a hero in his own mind. He did not realize possibly that he was doing it at the expense to the whole Nation. He might have had a mental blackout.
Mr. JENNER. Then you make the comment "better precautions should have been taken."
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. That is my very strong opinion, that better precautions should be taken by whatever authorities were in Dallas at the time to protect the President.
Now, I do not consider myself an exceedingly--a genius. But the very first thought after we heard that some character was mixed up in the assassination of the President, when we were listening to the radio in the house of an employee of the American Embassy in Port au Prince, and he mentioned that the name of the presumable assassin is something Lee, Lee, Lee---and I said, "Could it be Lee Oswald?"
And he said, "I guess that is the name."
Mr. JENNER. That occurred to you?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. That occurred to me.
Mr. JENNER. As soon as you heard the name Lee?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. As soon as I heard the name Lee. Now, why it occurred to me--because he was a crazy lunatic.
Mr. JENNER. Did you think about the rifle you had seen?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Immediately something occurred in my mind--the rifle. Actually, my wife and I were driving from a reception at the Syrian Embassy, where we heard the, story of the assassination. We were driving to the house of this friend of ours who works at the Embassy and wondering who could it be. And as soon as we heard that name, some association started working in our minds--and the fact that there was a gun there.
But my opinion--and again--was influenced naturally by what you read and hear in the papers. We were out of contact with people in Dallas, and out of contact with events.
The only thing we could judge is what we read in the papers.
Sometimes you read something like he was going to get some money, and naturally you start thinking that possibly somebody bought him.
Now, we heard, also, that he was getting some regular checks from somewhere.
Mr. JENNER. Where did you hear that?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. That I read in the papers some place he was getting regular checks.
Mr. JENNER. That didn't score with your recollection, did it?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I just read that in the papers some place.
Then you read this and that. I am not a detective. It is not up to me to make any conclusions.
Mr. JENNER. This letter was written, I take it--it is dated December 12, 1963. At the time you wrote it you had some of these newspaper articles in mind that were affecting your opinion, were they?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; but it contains all the facts----
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. Have you looked at the original of that letter?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, it looks to me that this is the original.
Mr. JENNER. That is your signature on the letter?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. You will note it is dated December 12, 1963.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. December 12, 1963.
Mr. JENNER. Would you look at the envelope that is attached to the letter. Is that envelope addressed in your handwriting, or does it have any of your handwriting on it?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. No; it is printed.
Mr. JENNER. Typed?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Typed, yes.
Mr. JENNER. And is that the envelope in which you dispatched that letter?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; it looks like that envelope.
Mr. JENNER. What is the date of the stamp cancellation?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. December 13, 1963.
Mr. JENNER. Where?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Port-an-Prince, Haiti. It was sent from Haiti, this letter.
Mr. JENNER. Yes; that is your letter, and you dispatched it?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Now, you say in that letter, after expressing your sympathies to Mrs. Auchincloss, and your very kind comments about Mrs. Kennedy, "I do hope that Marina and her children (I understand she has two now) will not suffer too badly throughout their lives, and that the stigma will not affect the innocent children. Somehow, I still have a lingering doubt, notwithstanding all the evidence, of Oswald's guilt."
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Exactly.
Mr. JENNER. Now, please explain that remark in that letter.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Unless the man is guilty, I will not be his judge unless he is proven to be guilty by the court, I will not be his judge, and there will be always a doubt in my mind, and throughout my testimony I explained sufficiently why I have those doubts. And mainly because he did not have any permanent animosity for President Kennedy. That is why I have the doubts.
Mr. JENNER. And that expression in this letter is based on all the things you have told me about in this long examination?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. A natural, I would assume, view on the part of any humanitarian person--that you just cannot imagine anybody murdering anybody else?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And he in turn had been murdered.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And his trial would never take place?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. And on the basis of what little you knew, you had lingering doubts?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Exactly.
Mr. JENNER. Not because you felt that anybody else might have been involved?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. No, no.
Mr. JENNER. And you had no notion of anybody else, and no information of anybody else being involved?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. No information.
Mr. JENNER. I want to give you an opportunity to explain that fully.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I have no information whatsoever, except what you hear now living in Port-au-Prince from the foreigners who read foreign papers. And, of course, they are all of the opinion that Oswald did not kill the President, that there was a plot, that there was---that somebody else was standing on the bridge, there was a car there on the bridge from where they were shooting, that there were four shots--and all those things are discussed all day long in Haiti right now, in the colony of foreigners-- Embassy People and businessmen who live in Haiti, most of them Europeans, of course. They discuss it all day long.
Mr. JENNER. And they are confining their judgment to what they read in the papers they receive from their homeland?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Purely; yes--purely. As you know, there are sensational articles being published right now in Europe on that subject.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. De Mohrenschildt, you know of no supposed facts that you have read in these foreign language newspapers, do you?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Do I know what?
Mr. JENNER. You don't know if there is any merit one way or another?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I don't know of any merit one way or the other.
Mr. JENNER. And this remark of yours in the letter to Mrs. Auchincloss was not intended to imply that?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. No, no; it was not. It was purely based on whatever was expressed in my testimony. And I think it will be fair to say that I will have that lingering doubt for the rest of my life.
Mr. JENNER. You may have an opportunity to read the Commission report, which I assume you will.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I wish you the best of luck.
Mr. JENNER. You wrote Mrs. Auchincloss again, did you not, in February 2, 1964?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. I hand you the envelope and letter. Do you identify those as being the letter you sent to her and the envelope in which the letter was enclosed?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; it is exactly the letter I have written.
Mr. JENNER. This letter leads me then into your Haiti venture. Tell us about it. How did that arise, when did you first think about it?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I started doing geological work in Haiti in 1956, I think, the first time, where I worked for some Haitian people connected with the Sinclair interests in Haiti.
I worked up a geological prospect for oil and gas drilling in the northern part of Haiti, and we were able to sell the projects to a company in Tulsa, and finally the deal fell through because of the Cuban situation.
In other words, the company did not want to drill in Haiti because of the expropriations going on in the Caribbean area. And the next time then I was in Haiti, as I explained before, after our trip----
Mr. JENNER. That is the trip you made down there, Mexico and the Central American countries?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes--in 1961--and started preparing this project from then on.
Finally the project came to fruition in March 1963, and we left for Haiti--at the end of May 1963.
Mr. JENNER. You made a trip to New York City before you went to Haiti, did you not?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. The first part of May 1963?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. About 2 weeks?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; New York, Philadelphia, Washington.
Mr. JENNER. Visited your daughter?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Visited my daughter. And also was in Washington preparing for the eventuality of this project, checking with the people, Bureau of Mines, and so forth.
Mr. JENNER. Is there a gentleman by the name of Tardieu whom you were attempting to interest?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. No, no; he is actually interested, and he is a Frenchman living in Haiti, who was instrumental to an extent in getting this contract.
Mr. JENNER. I hand you a document which we will mark "De Mohrenschildt Exhibit No. 1."(The document referred to was marked "De Mohrenschildt Exhibit No. 1" for identification.)
Mr. JENNER. It appears to be a piece of promotional literature issued in connection with the Haiti venture.
Am I correct about that?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Did you send that to Mr. Raigorodsky?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Now, the upper portion is in French. Would you favor me by reading first that which is on the left, and then that which is on the right?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. That is a very long article. A magnificent success for the Commercial Bank of Haiti. The result of a trip----
Mr. JENNER. That is a headline?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Headline.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Shall I make a short resume of that?
Mr. JENNER. I would prefer---can you translate that literally?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. "The recent trip to the United States of America by Mr. Clemard Joseph Charles, the active president and manager general of the bank, Commercial Bank of Haiti, has constituted a magnificent success for this banking establishment which is prospering right now.
"In reality, during one of the most amicable ceremonies, the assistant mayor of New York, Mr. James O'Brien, has given to Mr. Clemard Joseph Charles the keys of the city of New York in the name of Mayor Wagner, who was at that time in Europe.
"The dinners and lunches have been offered in honor of Mr. Clemard Charles, namely, by the American Express, Patent Resources, Inc., and the Hanover Trust Co. A short contact with Mr. Clemard Joseph Charles has permitted us to obtain certain information for the readers. The active president and director general of the Commercial Bank of Haiti has been able to conclude an important contract with one of the largest financial companies in New York which does business in the millions of dollars. This enterprise guaranteed by the Import-Expert Bank, the Chase Manhattan Bank, and the Bank of America, will make possible to the Haitian importers of American merchandise through the Commercial Bank of Haiti the credits of unlimited amounts for 6 months and longer periods.
"One other financial society which specialized in the real estate business which does business for some $150 million per year, will start through the intermediary of the Commercial Bank of Haiti a program of construction of houses whereby the credit will be given for 10 years.
"A system of insurance will cover the construction and a house will be given as a reward for the clients of the enterprise. Our country will be benefited with important advantages because of the interesting contracts taken by Mr. Clemard J. Charles, in New York. The president and the director general of the bank will take soon the plane for Canada and Mexico in order to follow on these important contracts which will be very favorable to our economy, and will permit the Commercial Bank of Haiti to be of further advantage to the people of Haiti."
Mr. JENNER. You have read the two columns appearing under that heading that you described.
Now, would you read the column to the right of those two columns?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. "Mr. C. J. Charles, honorary citizen of the city of New York. Mr. Clemard Joseph Charles, president and director of the Bank Commercial of Haiti, Port-au-Prince, has come back yesterday morning with his charming wife, Sophie, from a trip of 2 weeks in New York, and was accompanied by Mr. James R. Green, vice president of the Manufacturers Hanover Trust Co., which is a large bank of Wall Street, New York.
"Mr. Green spent just a few hours in the capital, just sufficient time to visit the Commercial Bank with which Hanover Trust Co. wants to do business. Mr. Charles is very satisfied from the contacts which he has made during this trip, and satisfied with the promotion of his commercial bank. The Haitian banker was honored by Mayor Wagner of the city of New York, and has made his assistant, Mr. O'Brien, give the key of the city as an honorary citizen, to Mr. Charles."
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Reporter, would you mark that "George S. De Mohrenschildt Exhibit No. 1"?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. This is by the way the photograph of a paper.
Mr. JENNER. This is a photostat of two news items, in the Haitian paper in Port-au-Prince, together with a telegram.
Now, all those together comprised, did they, some of the promotion literature with respect to your Haitian venture?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. In what respect? Can you give us the thrust of that?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. In the respect that they acquaint the possible investor with the personalities involved.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Who is the gentleman who sent the telegram?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Mr. Tardieu.
Mr. JENNER. What is his first name?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Mr. B. Juindine Tardieu, who is the agent and you might say a broker who negotiated the contract with the Haitian Government.
Mr. JENNER. Well----
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. He is domiciled in Haiti.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, you had some correspondence with Clemard Joseph Charles?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Is the letter I now hand you, which we will identify as George S. De Mohrenschildt Exhibit No. 2, a photostatic copy of correspondence between you and that gentleman, a copy of which you transmitted to Paul Raigorodsky?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; that is the letter I received.(The document referred to was marked "George S. De Mohrenschildt Exhibit No. 2" for identification.)
Mr. JENNER. Now I will show you a series of three documents, the first sheet consisting of a photostat of an envelope addressed, I believe in your handwriting, to Mr. Paul Raigorodsky; is that correct?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. In Dallas.
The next being a personal note of yours in your longhand to Mr. Raigorodsky; is that correct?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, indeed.
Mr. JENNER. The next being in the form of a copy of a letter from you, dated July 27, 1962, to Mr. Jean de Menil.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. In which you have written in the upper right-hand corner in your handwriting, "Copy for Mr. Raigorodsky." Is what I have said correct?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And lastly, there appears to be promotional literature, one sheet, dated August 1, 1962, signed by you at the bottom?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, indeed.
Mr. JENNER. And on your letterhead--George De Mohrenschildt, Petroleum Geologist and Engineer, 1639-40 Republican National Bank Building, Dallas, Tex.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Reporter, would you mark those in the record, I have given them to you, as "De Mohrenschildt Exhibits 3, 4, 5, and 6."(The documents referred to were marked "De Mohrenschildt Exhibits 3, 4, 5, and 6" for identification.)
Mr. JENNER. In addition to those materials, did you also transmit to Mr. Raigorodsky two additional documents which I have in my hand--one a photostatic copy of a Western Union telegram, dated August 3, 1963, from Tardieu to you, and the second document a copy of a letter of yours to the gentlemen. I mentioned a moment ago, Mr. Jean de Menil; dated August 7, 1962, upon which there appears some handwritten notes of yours to Mr. Raigorodsky?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Is that your handwriting?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, sir; that is right.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Reporter, mark those documents, if you will, as "De Mohrenschildt Exhibits 7 and 16."(The documents referred to were marked "De Mohrenschildt Exhibits 7 and 16" for identification.)
Mr. JENNER. On September 12, you appear to have transmitted some additional materials to Mr. Raigorodsky. I hold in my hand three documents.
The first, a photostatic copy of an envelope, with your letterhead in the upper left-hand corner, your Dallas office, addressed to Mr. Paul Raigorodsky.
The second, a letter signed "George and Jeanne" over a typewritten signature, "Jeanne and George De Mohrenschildt."
Is the George and Jeanne in handwriting your handwriting?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And this letter is dated September 12, 1963. You transmitted that letter to Mr. Raigorodsky?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, indeed.
Mr. JENNER. In the envelope we have just identified. And did you also enclose the third document, which is a diagram of----
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Of the planned development in Haiti.
Mr. JENNER. And it has in the lower left-hand corner in longhand "Credits available for these industries--George De M. Dallas, September 11, 1963." Is that your handwriting?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, indeed.
Mr. JENNER. Did you also send Mr. Raigorodsky a map of Haiti, in which you--excuse me.
Mr. Reporter, would you mark the three documents I have just identified as De Mohrenschildt Exhibits 8, 9, and 10.(The documents referred to were marked "De Mohrenschildt Exhibits 8, 9, and 10" for identification.)
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Reporter, identify the next document as De Mohrenschildt Exhibit No. 11.(The document referred to was marked "De Mohrenschildt Exhibit No. 11" for identification.)
Mr. JENNER. For the purpose of the record, it is the description map of Haiti. This is a map published by the Texaco Co., and it is available to anybody who wants to pick up a map at a gasoline service station, is it not?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. It is not a fancy geologist's map, for example?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. No.
Mr. JENNER. Did you send that to Mr. Raigorodsky?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, indeed.
Mr. JENNER. There is some longhand on it, do you see that?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And is that your longhand?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. In the upper right-hand corner----
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. It shows the possibility for----
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. I just want you to read the words, and not elaborate. I am going to have you elaborate on them. There is in the upper right-hand corner first near the letter "A" of "Atlantic," an arrow pointing to the left, to a small island. What are the words there?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. "New resorts."
Mr. JENNER. And then to the right of that inscription, there are three lines of words, and an arrow pointing to an area in which I see the word "Caracol." Read those words.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. "New resort, Chou-Chou Beach."
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Now, in the lower left-hand portion of the upper right-hand quadrant there appears an inscription with an arrow pointing to "Mont Rouis." And then below that, over what appears to be a series of islands encircled, there appears more writing.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. "Oil possibilities on this island."
Mr. JENNER. All right. Do the words "on this island" appear?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. No. Just "oil possibilities."
Mr. JENNER. I am just getting the wording first, and then I will have you explain it all later.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. "Our Shada concession."
Mr. JENNER. Now, the words "Our Shada concession" are the words at the lead end of the arrow which points to Moat Rouis, which you have already identified in the record.
Now, to the extreme right, and at the margin, opposite the inscriptions we have just described, there is some more writing. Would you read that?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. "Brown and Root built this dam."
Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, there is an encirclement around--between the two we have identified, but above it looks as though the center of this island here--there is an inscription. This appears in the area--there is an X there--an airplane indication Hinche and there is some writing. What is that?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. "Oil possibilities."
Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, Port-au-Prince is encircled. Then at the bottom, which is the lower right-hand quadrant, there is an arrow pointed to Pationville. And that arrow leads to some handwriting.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. "Ibolele Hotel."
Mr. JENNER. Now, to the left of that inscription, and in the center of the map, the lower half, there is an encirclement that encircles an area, the chief town of which appears to be what?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Lescayes.
Mr. JENNER. And what is written there?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. "Oil possibilities."
Mr. JENNER. Now, I guess we have gotten everything you have written on there. Now, with those papers, would you proceed to tell us now about your Haitian venture, and take those papers, since they seem to be in some order of sequence as to time, and tell us all about it.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Well---
Mr. JENNER. In other words, this venture is no mite, is it?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. No. It started--it already started by my previous work there in 1956. It is the result of many trips I took to Haiti in the meantime. And it is a result of an effort which started in 1961.
I have in my possession a letter from the minister of mines which----
Mr. JENNER. Of what country?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Of Haiti. Dated in 1961, giving me an opportunity to present a geological survey of Haiti.
Mr. JENNER. What was that to be for?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. This was to search and study the oil and gas and all the mineralogical points of the whole country.
Mr. JENNER. Did this have anything, any purpose or intent, other than a legitimate effort on your part, on behalf of the Haitian Government, to you a petroleum engineer and geologist, to discover in Haiti mineral deposits that might be of economic value to Haiti, and to those who might be willing to risk their capital to develop it?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. This is the only purpose I have--purely business promotional project.
Mr. JENNER. And this is in no way linked, directly, indirectly, or in any remote possibility, with any mapping of this country with great care for the possibility of its being employed by any other nation or group?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. No; no other nation could use my maps, and no other project, except our own commercial and geological project--nothing else.
Anyway, the whole Island of Haiti has been mapped in complete precision by the U.S. Government already, and the maps are available right here in Washington. And my office in Port-au-Prince, actually they are officers of Inter-American Geodetic Survey.
On one side is the American representative of the Geodetic Survey, and on the other side I am doing my geological work in the same building. He helps me with some of his equipment, some of his advice, some of his maps, and we pursue our own work there.
I employed in the last 8 months since we have been in Haiti an Italian geologist who came specially to Haiti from South America, with all the equipment, and stayed with us for several months. I employed a Swiss assistant. I employed--I am employing an American geologist right now, recommended by the University of Texas, who is living in Haiti with his family, and whose salary I am paying; I am responsible for him.
I have also, in addition to that, employed a prospector from Alaska, an American. And I am employing a group of Haitian engineers and geologists engineers, not geologists, because they don't have geologists. Engineers. And it is a project which--for which the Haitian Government is supposed to pay me $285,000, out of which they pay $20,000 in cash, and the rest they are paying from the interest in the sisal plantation at Mont Rouis.
This plantation started to be operated jointly by Mr. Clemard J. Charles, president of the Commercial Bank of Haiti, and myself; and now Mr. Charles is operating it for me, doing all the administrative work, and I am pursuing my geological work.
Up to now, we found some things which were indicated on the map here.
Mr. JENNER. I don't want you to reveal any business secret, because I appreciate--all I am getting at is the general description of the project, and its good faith.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. I hope that this will be sufficiently justified in good faith.
Mr. JENNER. And these documents we have identified are documents which you sent to Mr. Raigorodsky with what thought in mind?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. With the thought of having him eventually participate in various enterprises which may come out of it.
Mr. JENNER. Such as?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Such as development of small industries, development of oil production, development of new hotels and new resorts, et cetera. Because the country is open to new business and I think has excellent opportunities for American investments.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, you have expressed an opinion, have you not, as to the activity or lack of activity on the part of the FBI in connection with the assassination of the President?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, I think that they should have sent away from Dallas every suspicious person, like any other country would do--when somebody--when an important figure arrives to town, and there are deranged people, or people who have habits of shooting guns at targets or ones who have been traitors to their country to some extent, you know--any controversial people should be not necessarily put to jail, but sent away from the town.
Mr. JENNER. And you have Lee Oswald in mind, do you?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I have Lee Oswald in mind.
Mr. JENNER. You assume that the FBI was aware that he had this weapon, and he was target practicing with it?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. That I do not know, whether they had that knowledge of the weapon. But it is not for me to judge them. But I think they should have known. If they didn't know, they should have known.
Mr. JENNER. And I take it your opinion, whether they did or did not know of the weapon, they had other information with respect to Oswald's attempted defection and matters of that nature which you feel----
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. They must have had that information.
Mr. JENNER. And as an American citizen, it is your view that they should have done what?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I think they should have---in my opinion, they shouldn't have let him come back to the United States--No. 1.
And No. 2, the people like us should have been protected against even knowing people like Oswald. Maybe I am wrong in that respect
Mr. JENNER. Well, it is an opinion. That is all I am asking you for.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. And thirdly, Oswald was known as a violent character, especially in the last time. He was known, as I read from the papers, that he participated in pro-Castro demonstrations in New Orleans. That is what I read in the papers. And so therefore, he should have been kept away from Dallas when the President was there.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Reporter, would you mark the Auchincloss letter, dated February 2, 1964, and its accompanying envelope as De Mohrenschildt Exhibits 12 and 13, respectively?(The documents referred to were marked "De Mohrenschildt Exhibits 12 and 13," for identification.)
Mr. JENNER. And the Auchincloss letter of December 12, 1963, and its accompanying envelope as De Mohrenschildt Exhibits 14 and 15, respectively.(The documents referred to were marked "De Mohrenschildt Exhibits 14 and 15," for identification.)
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. All these contracts in Haiti have been made official by an act of Congress of Haiti on March 13, 1963, and signed by the president of the country and by all the ministers, stipulating that the price of the geological survey would be $285,000, and the consideration for it will be the concession of the sisal in Haiti, originally an American company called Shada, built by the U.S. Department of Agriculture and developed during the war, and later on sold to the Haitian Government. This concession is given to me for the duration of 10 years, with an extended duration of 10 years more. I think that will explain it.
Mr. JENNER. Fine.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I could talk for hours about this project, because it was developed through so many years, and so much effort.
Mr. JENNER. In order that the correspondence be complete, Mr. De Mohrenschildt has produced for me the response he received to his letter of December 12, 1963, to Mrs. Auchincloss.
Mr. De Mohrenschildt, since it is a personal letter, I will ask you to read the letter in evidence. It has a longhand note on it. You might want to keep the original. So just read it. And just for the purpose of the record, and not because I suspicion you, I will watch you read it.
It is on letterhead, 3044 O Street, Northwest, Washington, D.C.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. That is correct.
"Dear George:
"Thank you for your letter and for your sympathy for Jacqueline. Please accept my deepest sympathy in the loss of your son. How tragic for you."
"It seems extraordinary to me that you knew Oswald and that you knew Jackie as a child. It is certainly a very strange world."
Mr. JENNER. Hold it a minute. The second paragraph begins with the words "it seems."
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. "You did not say why you were in Haiti, so I imagine that you are in our Foreign Service. If you come to Washington again, I would like to talk with you, and I would very much like to meet your wife. When you next write to Dimitri, will you send him my warmest regards, and thank him for his sympathy."
Mr. JENNER. Dimitri is your brother?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Now, there is a longhand note.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
"I live now in Georgetown. Your letter has made me think a good deal. I hope too--that Mrs. Oswald will not suffer.
"Very sincerely, Janet Lee Auchincloss."
Mr. JENNER. Dated?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Wednesday, January 29.
Mr. JENNER. All right. You just keep that original.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Thank you.
Mr. JENNER. I show you what purports to be a transcript of a Christmas card, 1963, allegedly transmitted by you, appearing at page 3, Commission Document 703-F. Would you read it, please?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. This paragraph?
Mr. JENNER. The whole card.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. "Merry Christmas and Happy New Year. Best wishes for 1964, George and Jeanne De M.
"Alex is in New York State, supposedly working at some mental hospital. Gary Taylor takes care of Cousin Lil. Nancy is alive, still kicking. We are happy here. Appalled at the crimes in Dallas. "George."
Mr. JENNER. You transmitted that Christmas card with that inscription?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Now, would you explain your statement, "appalled at the crimes in Dallas"?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, I mean the assassination of the President and subsequent assassination of Lee Oswald by Ruby, and the assassination by Oswald of this policeman--three assassinations, one after another.
Mr. JENNER. All right. By the way, did you ever see Jack Ruby in the flesh?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Never; no. On TV you mean?
Mr. JENNER. No.
Did you know him when you were in Dallas?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. No.
Mr. JENNER. To the best of your recollection, had you ever seen him when you were in Dallas?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Don't recall.
Mr. JENNER. Was his name ever mentioned at any conversation that took place in the presence of Lee Oswald while you were present?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Never.
Mr. JENNER. Was at any time there any conversation, or did anything occur while you were in Dallas to lead you to believe directly or indirectly, or to any degree whatsoever, that Lee Oswald knew Jack Ruby?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. No, sir; not one indication.
Mr. JENNER. Did anything occur in Dallas by way of any statements to you, statements made in your presence, or anything you noticed or saw, that would lead you at any time while you were in Dallas, to lead you to believe that Lee Oswald was ever in the Carousel Club in Dallas?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. No.
Mr. JENNER. Did you try to interest Mr. Kitchel in your Haiti venture?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And he did not join?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. No.
Mr. JENNER. That was a friendly gesture on your part, was it?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. I am pleased to say to you that he so regarded it.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I am glad to hear that.
Mr. JENNER. That he thought you were in good faith, offering him an opportunity to participate, and you were not thinking in terms of any business advantage.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. No, no.
Mr. JENNER. And that is the fact; is it?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; of course. I offered this project to quite a few people, and it so happened that at the time they were afraid of Haiti, and I am very happy to say that I am now the sole proprietor of the whole project. It may be all for the best.
Mr. JENNER. I will show the witness pages 4, 5 and 6 and 7 of Commission Document No. 542. I wish to direct your attention primarily to the-- what purports to be a letter from you to Mr. Kitchel, setting forth the background of information on a holding company that you were developing in Haiti. Would you read the letter?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. "Haitian Holding Company."
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. It may already be in evidence.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. "August 1, 1962."
Mr. JENNER. I think not--but if you will hold a minute. What I have just shown you is a copy of De Mohrenschildt Exhibit No. 6.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, sir; this was followed, of course, by many other letters and correspondence with our prospective investors and people who might be interested in a mining development of Haiti.
I am negotiating right now with an aluminum company for the development of bauxite, and with oil companies in regard to development of oil possibilities.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. De Mohrenschildt, we have had some discussions off the record, and I had lunch with you a couple of times. Is there anything that we discussed during the course of any off-the-record discussions which I have not already brought out on the record that you think is pertinent and should be brought out?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't remember any.
Mr. JENNER. None occurs to you?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. No.
Mr. JENNER. Now, I don't know everything by any means. I will ask you this general question. Is there anything else, despite all our careful investigation, and my questioning of you at some length, that you think is pertinent and might be helpful to the Commission in its important work, and if you can think of anything, would you please mention it?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Frankly, I cannot think of anything else you could do. All the rest--what else can you do except investigate as much as you can?
Mr. JENNER. Mr. De Mohrenschildt, you appear here voluntarily and at some inconvenience?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And on behalf of the Commission, and the Commission staff, want to express our appreciation to you for having come to this country, at some inconvenience, and your answering my questions here for 2 days spontaneously and directly. Some of them have been highly personal. But you have exhibited no discomfiture because they have been personal. We appreciate your assistance and your help.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I hope I have been helpful to some extent.
Mr. JENNER. Now, as I spoke to you yesterday, you have a right to read your deposition, and to sign it, and you told me I think yesterday that you would like to read it over.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. If it won't be a very lengthy job and very hurried job to do that, and inconvenience the reporter. I think I have said everything I could know. I don't think I could add or change very much. It is all right as far as I am concerned.
Mr. JENNER. As far as you are concerned, you would just as soon waive the necessity of reading and signing?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Fine.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. If I made a mistake, it was involuntary. I might have missed a date or something. But I did to the best of my ability.
Mr. JENNER. We will have your deposition by tomorrow. And Mrs. De Mohrenschildt will be here tomorrow.
If you would like to come over and read it, you may. Otherwise, if you don't return to read it, we will consider that you have waived it.
I offer in evidence the exhibits I have heretofore marked, being De Mohrenschildt Exhibits 1 through 16, inclusive.